Language + style guide for translators

This is looking great @richarddbartlett

update

@richarddbartlett has made good progress on the technical implementation side, and we're nearly there in terms of having the ability in the app to switch language preference. He is still looking at the process for using Transifex.

@noelia is going to set up a Spanish community subgroup in the main Loomio subgroup and work on starting up a self-supporting community there. She will be available to answer emails from Spanish speaking users who contact us, and will add more Spanish speaking users to the subgroup as they join.

We are going to start the process of incorporating self-supporting help and membership in the online community into the main sign-up process. Rich is going to start a Loomio discussion about this in the Features group. Eventually we want a system where when someone signs up they are invited to the Loomio Community group and/or a community group in their own language. This is a design challenge and will take some time to implement however.

Once we release the Spanish version and get our Spanish speaking beta testers using it and participating in the Spanish subgroup on Loomio, then we will look at doing the same for more languages.

@alannakrause just remember to invite me to the spanish help community. Plus as we are spanish beta testers we should have an easy way to transfer translated doubts(spanish>english) that we can't answer to the Loomio coreteam and then translate your answers to us back into spanish to ease @noelia work.

Count on me for the Spanish help community as well !
Is there a document/application where you are currently doing the translations to Spanish to give it a look?

@miguelpradosrodrig de monento puedes ver Loomio en Español agregando ?Locale=es por ejemplo este
https://www.loomio.org/discussions/3218?locale=es

Tod@s Los que quieran ser parte de la Comunidad en Español, darle un me gusta a este mensaja para poder agregarlos, es importante recordar que la comunicacion en ese grupo es siempre en Español, abrazo!

He iniciado el grupo "Cooperativa de Ingenieros" y antes de empezar a invitar a usuarios, me gustaría que me dijeseis donde pueden dejar sus comentarios/contribuciones a la traducción, gracias. Por otro lado, he observado que el mensaje de bienvenida en la creación de un nuevo grupo está en inglés.

Hola @miguelpradosrodrig todavía hay muchas cosas que no están traducidas pero estamos en eso.

Si puedo ayudar... solo tenéis que mandarme textos en inglés a [email protected] y los iré traduciendo...

@miguelpradosrodrig ok te dejare saber cuando haga las notificaciones en ingles, por el momento estoy traduciendo lo mas que puedo yo por razones practicas como parte de mi pasantía con loomio pero gracias por ofrecer tu ayuda :)

@miguelpradosrodrig @franciscogeorgeppe como traducirían "open-source collaboration" ? Colaboración de código abierto? o Colectivo de código abierto? o tmb se usa open source en español?

@noelia Colaboración en entornos de código abierto o colaboración en herramientas de código abierto, depende del contexto.

@miguelpradosrodrig sal del sitio y ve a la pagina principal para que lo veas.. y me dices :)

@noelia Colaboración en código abierto

@noelia Recientemente ha habido polemica en España sobre los usos de los terminos de "Software Libre" y de "codigo abierto" que segun algunos se usan de manera equivocada. Desde PIRATA escribimos a Richard Stallman, padre del concepto.

Su respuesta avalaba este articulo de Pablo Manchon

http://www.eldiario.es/turing/Software-llamen-libre_0_117238356.html

Asi que mejor lo volvamos a leer para no errar en los conceptos

Something interesting has come up in our work on the German translation concerning how we address users. You’re probably aware that German (and other languages, such as French and Spanish) have different forms for addressing people based on their relationship and the formality of the situation. Now, I’d say that “informal, conversational tone” and “how people talk when they meet as equals in a friendly collaborative meeting” favours the less formal German “Du” (=you). This is also what’s been used throughout the German translation of the main resource. But when @christianmairoll translated the subtitles for the “how it works” video (thanks for helping!), he used the more formal “Sie” (=you). If I’m not mistaken, the French translation seems to be using the more formal form “vous” while the Spanish is using the less formal “tu”.
I’m aware that the differences in formality between these words aren’t necessarily equivalent across languages, but I’d be glad to hear other people’s thoughts about this!

To be honest I didn't check the existing translation before I started with the video texts. For me it was kind of natural to use the formal variant "Sie" because the very informal German "Du" might be perceived by many people as aggressive marketing (just see how many people feel heavily offended by companies like IKEA who always use "Du") in their commercials. As I understand, we're looking to build credibility for Loomio. That simply clashes if you treat your users like kids. The potential that someone feels unformfortable with informal "Du" is much higher than the potential that someone feels treated too anonymous/formal with a "Sie".

I think it depends on the situation. In a promotional video or website I'd always expect formal wording while in a chat community when talking to others I know, I will always use the informal variant. But talking to others is something different than communicating information on a 1:n website.

In fact, there are some words that seems aren't the best choice even in the original language. For example, “discussion” reminds something to do with confusion, even though it must be only a kind of “debate”. This last word calls for a moderator, what isn’t the Loomio proposal. So, “dialogue” would be better in my opinion, although people in internet are more used to the discussion word and English isn't my first language, so I better be quiet about it. The point here is do choose the right words which fits better in a fluid conversation that brings a feeling of good will and mutual understanding.

About the power of words:

“But if thought corrupts language, language can also corrupt thought.”
George Orwell, 1984

You're so right @renato, 'dialogue' is definitely closer to the meaning we're after. It could be argued that 'discussion' is a more common word though, so that could be taken into account.

It might be interesting to raise a proposal to switch discussion for dialog, and see what the group thinks? If you want to, it would probably be best to do it in the Feature Ideas group :)

Don't raise a new thread! Just revive this in-depth one about "Discussion Vs Dialogue"

Maybe it would be good if translators read this enlightening thread above (Discussion Vs Dialogue)… Then we would open a new proposal right here in this very thread to know how the translators prefer in their main language. Although we must keep our translation how it is in the original language, it would be nice to see the different feelings coming from distinct cultures. And then, if we opt “dialogue” for the left hand column (and “collaboration”, “meeting” or “assembly” – this last word is my favorite – for the whole page), we could revive the previous thread with the input from all translators. If it be changed in English, we do the same in our first language.

I don't know how to proceed with the German translation until there's some kind of decision on formal vs. informal for addressing users.

I would say do it incrementaly. You will not know how the translation will sound until you start doing it and then using it in Loomio.

Ok, so the current status is that both the main resource and the updated how it works are 100% translated and pending review. For the main resource, the informal “Du” is used, while the video subtitles address (potential) users with the more formal “Sie”.

As I’ve said above, I personally think that the informal form fits Loomio better. At least regarding the context of activism - I would pretty much never address my fellow activists with the formal “Sie”.

hi Florian, I've just imported the translations into Loomio. Look forward to hearing how german people feel about the formal versus informal.

It's an interesting challenge. In english we are often very unclear online what the tone is because we do familiarity with tone of voice and choice of words.

I'm going to change the subtitles to informal version for consistency across all communication channels.

I agree that informal fits better for activism, but keep in mind that Loomio will one day reach a size where it will sound a bit childish and probably prevent access to a specific audience when using informal style only.

In general I'd say it's best to avoid either of them and use generic terms like "man kann xy" (engl. "one can do xy"). But that doesn't always work.