This is a nice idea and all but I think its highly unrealistic (tech wise) and something most NZers will not support in general at least for the upcoming decade or so.

We have too much tied up in agriculture/horticulture(Primary industries) etc currently for this to be appealing.

But then again I'm a bit of a pessimist in terms in new tech ideas ;)

The Venus Project is a good Long Term goal and something we should be thinking about once we make it through this election. I think one part of the Venus Project which we discussed at the meetup was it has a correct process for debating and discussing ideas (So we don't rip each others heads off!) and another being treating each problem as it being Unique with its own Unique Solution which could be a good thing to look at.

But the idea in its entirety will take awhile, especially since the Venus project regards Politicians as not being helpful in the Cities that would be built. :walking:

This is a nice idea and all but I think its highly unrealistic (tech wise) and something most NZers will not support in general at least for the upcoming decade or so.

According to the studies that they've done we can do almost all of it now with our present tech base.

And I think NZers will support it - once they hear about it and get good information. It's getting that good information to them that's going to be hard especially when you consider the entrenched power base as it is now.

We have too much tied up in agriculture/horticulture(Primary industries) etc currently for this to be appealing.

Actually, agriculture/horticulture only takes up, in real physical terms, about 7% of the economy.

But then again I'm a bit of a pessimist in terms in new tech ideas

They're not really new. Go back to the 50s and 60s and you will see similar ideas bandied about. It was expected that we'd all be working only 15 hours per week by 2000 and that's entirely possible. If every country was equally productive there's no way that there'd be enough work for everyone to do 40+ hour weeks.

According to the studies that they've done we can do almost all of it now with our present tech base.

Implementing tech is very different than theorizing about tech.

Actually, agriculture/horticulture only takes up, in real physical terms, about 7% of the economy.

Source? Because this seems quite far from my perception. Then again I work in horticulture.

They're not really new. Go back to the 50s and 60s and you will see similar ideas bandied about. It was expected that we'd all be working only 15 hours per week by 2000 and that's entirely possible. If every country was equally productive there's no way that there'd be enough work for everyone to do 40+ hour weeks.

Ideas sure, the tech not so much. People theorize on a lot of things, them coming true is another thing :P

Implementing tech is very different than theorizing about tech.

When I say 'what we have now' I'm talking about stuff that's already been implemented. It's not just uniform across the world. If it was it's estimated that about 75% of jobs now done would disappear.

Source? Because this seems quite far from my perception.

The World bank. The number of people employed in agriculture has been declining for decades as productivity increased. It maps the trend of declining regions as well.

Ideas sure, the tech not so much. People theorize on a lot of things, them coming true is another thing

If it can be done and it would give us all a better life then why is it stopped?
That's not such a silly question because politicians have been worried about it for awhile and not because people wouldn't have enough to live upon but because they'd have time for politics. (Can't recall where I've seen that but it's on the net somewhere).

while a touch of pessimism ensures realism, and that is a good thing, I don't see why we should be pessimistic about this ... much can be achieved with the will to achieve it (and realistic goals). Hence my small caution when / if we write this up as policy.

I like this idea a lot. As @joshrich pointed out though there are a lot of challenges to overcome but I'm with @miriammallinder when she says that with small steps we can get there.

I wonder though if the actual Venus Project itself is a protected intellectual property? @colinsmith do you have any idea about that?

My suggestion is to maybe start this as a much smaller project. We can identify a small town in NZ somewhere that it's cheap to buy property and then we can look for say 50 volunteers to look at either purchasing property there or be willing to rent there and have them move there and start a pilot project using these principles. I can see a lot of problems so we need to identify them and set achievable goals for how and when we can resolve them.

Suggestions or comments?

The concept is not patented or proprietary, it is a process that should be used whenever decisions are made as they are always coloured by cultural and religious doctrine of the decision maker which rarely reflects reality.

Examples:
On the Issue of Land:
When Europeans first landed here in New Zealand, the Maori had no concept of land ownership. This idea was totally alien from their culture and practices.
{Europeans: Stupid natives generating all these irrelevant issues, they need to change their cultural beliefs and live in the real world}

On the Issue of Starvation:
As Europeans, we need to do something about people starving to death around the world.
{Cannibal Tribes of Papua New Guinea: What food shortage? There are nine billion people on this planet. there is an abundance of food. {Stupid Europeans generating all these irrelevant issues, they need to change their cultural beliefs and live in the real world}

The hardest part is recognizing your own biases and dealing with them, especially if they are accepted by others in your environment as the norm. It can mean you clash with those individuals you hold most dear.

I also think this is not really relevant to our partys policy. If this were to happen to it would have to be community driven.

How would the community know if the conversation isn't started?

We start the conversation, detail our support for it and what we think needs to happen up to and including building a small test project around the principles of a self-sustaining city.

Has anyone been watching TV 1 “What Next” at 8:30.

I think they have been reading my post on The Venus Project. On their polls - 78% of people who participated are wanting out of the box thinking along the lines of what The Venus Project is offering.

There is an opportunity here to ride on these findings before the momentum collapses and collect these people as supporters. We would need to present The Venus Project as one of our proffered options for New Zealand. I am immersing myself to fully understand their concept and I am willing to stand for election if the party were to offer this to the public. I want to see this system evolve into reality.

wow @colinsmith that's amazing! and @colinengland I personally agree!

Granted there are MANY barriers, but all you do is identify them and pick away at them one at a time. It just takes will.

Personally I see no reason why the Internet Party should not SUPPORT this or at least have this type of enterprise in its environmental policy. I mean, 30 years ago the idea of supporting legal cannabis was considered stupid, now it isn't.

@joshrich for what reasons do you think this is irrelevant to us?

I see this simply as a community project scale rather than a position a party should take.

If it were to become a policy it would need to be supported publicly otherwise it would just hurt the party.

are we here to be radical, and game changers, or just moderate 'please everybody' like every other political party?

From tonight’s show: Implement a UBI and Businesses working not for profit and solely for the good of the population.

The UBI requires the government to have an income to be able to pass this on to everyone.
No one is going to be immune from these changes. For those people whose jobs are left in the new economy will find that they will be working for a lot less money as those who are without jobs will seek to obtain those jobs and are willing to do the same work for less money simply so they can have an income to survive. This I can prove is already happening.

Employers will look to reduce their costs by factoring out the amount of the UBI from their wage bills so their employees will still receive the same income because the employee will not feel the loss as much. Both these translates to a much lower tax take which then means the government will have fewer funds to finance the UBI.

What income level should the UBI be set too? We will need to keep the UBI to the absolute minimum to be able to afford it.

If we can reduce the cost of food, housing, education to as much as possible. The problem here is then the tax take from those goods and services reduces too! The only time this equation works is when both these pricing requirements reach zero $0:00. Money has to be taken out of the equation. Jacque Fresco worked this out decades ago. His answer to all of these issues is The Venus Project.

On tonight’s pole over 70% of respondents said they would be happy to see a trial of UBI put in place (possible in one town). The figures on what numbers the “respondents” represents will be available next week

Apparently Finland is already has a UBI trail in place so this has traction.

If NZ is going to do this then why not implement The Venus Project it is the same thing but with much bigger objectives and goals. A trial town/city in NZ is what I have been working on.

Businesses working not for profit and solely for the good of the population: That is a page directly out of The Venus Project.

If we were to announce this as one of our policies after the show finishes that makes The Internet Party squarely part of this conversation. This would result in a huge (FREE) media blitz for us because it shows that we are very much in tune with the changing world. (Which we are, just look at my previous posts and the overall positive responses my posts received). We would NOT be jumping on the bandwagon and going ME TOO!

This will leave the competition playing catch up.

Now consider this. How would our polices and / or voter support would stack up against our competition if they were to present plans to implement the UBI or even The Venus Project.

(I will be contacting the “Futurist” on my own behalf after the show irrespective of what is decided here. Imagine having them onside and the insights and support that they may provide.)

This is a public forum so this conversation will be a red flag for anyone monitoring our activities in order to minimise our effectiveness.

The UBI requires the government to have an income to be able to pass this on to everyone.

No it doesn't. To be more precise, we need to flip the direction of monetary flow from what people believe it is to what it needs to be. That direction of flow is from the government into the economy via government spending and then back to the government via taxes.

The UBI becomes funding for the entire economy.

Employers will look to reduce their costs by factoring out the amount of the UBI from their wage bills so their employees will still receive the same income because the employee will not feel the loss as much.

They will try that. If it works is another question. After all, the people will actually have a choice of working for those wages or not.

I actually expect low paid jobs to start paying more while highly paid jobs will pay less.

What income level should the UBI be set too? We will need to keep the UBI to the absolute minimum to be able to afford it.

Wrong.
The UBI needs to be set at a level that would provide a reasonable standard of living which should include the possibility of being entrepreneurial. About $400 per week.

See above for why we can afford a UBI of any amount. Also, saying that we can't afford a UBI is the same as saying we cannot support all the people living here.

Money has to be taken out of the equation.

Not just money but profit as well. Profit is what the economists call a dead-weight loss.

Every issue they have addressed on the show to date is paralleled and addressed by the solutions offered by TVP.

The number of people participating in last nights On Line Questionnaire was 150,000 voters so that’s roughly just fewer than 4% of New Zealand. If we assume that if they took the trouble to vote on TV then they would take the trouble to vote in the election.

The voters have indicated they want this type of change. If I then “make an assumption” that they are true to their word then any party offering this solution would gain 4% of the votes. (There are currently 119 seats in parliament)

(To Understand Type A and Type B you will need to watch “What Next?” on TV One “On Demand”)

This series is about the issues that NZ “will be facing” as a country, it is not about cannabis reform or retirement age or how much you get on the dole or how many Maori are in prison compared to Pakeha. These ARE important issues but are Part A problems and are going to be exacerbated by the Type B environment that is arriving. Part A polices are not going to solve the Part B issues.

Having watched tonight’s episode it was just more of the same confirmation that my belief in The Venus Project is the right decision - at least for myself. Before this show I was under the impression that I was in very much the minority with my thinking. This series has endorsed all my beliefs and shown me that there are many more who understand the issues. I have only slept a little over 5 hours since the first show on Sunday night and I still wide awake and literally bouncing of walls. I have no idea where I am getting this energy from, I am just so hyped.

So, I need to know: Are we a “Type A” or a “Type B” political party.

Updating Democracy? Our policies to date as I read them are indicating that we are a Type A policies while trying to convince New Zealand into believing we are a techy Type B party. Are we dishing up the same old policies that are not really distinguishable from any other political parties offering.

If any of the prospective candidates are unsure about endorsing the project because they do not know or understand the TVP please be assured that I can easily bring you sufficiently up to speed in time for this election and I would be standing with you. (Assuming you would have me stand).

I originally joined the party to hopefully (respectably) kick the backsides of the incumbent political parties; I was pissed at all of them for being idiots. Now that this program has aired – it has changed the game for me. I can now kick them were it hurts AND provide positive change for New Zealand.

I need to be in a Type B party, I had hoped that it was us.
If we are a Type A party or even a Type AB then I am in the wrong place.

Its midnight - again - and I am still full of energy

These ARE important issues but are Part A problems and are going to be exacerbated by the Type B environment that is arriving. Part A polices are not going to solve the Part B issues.

You cannot find answers to today's and tomorrows problems from the policies of the past that caused those problems.

So, I need to know: Are we a “Type A” or a “Type B” political party.

We need to be a party that looks at the world as it is and the problems that it presently has then look to where those problems came from and, after that, suggest solutions. They cannot be more Business as Usual as BAU is the cause of most of those problems.

The important point is that we need to clearly show that BAU is the cause of the problems and so many people simply won't believe that despite the evidence right in front of them.

Updating Democracy?

We do need to do this. The one we have, which is more properly considered an elective dictatorship, was fine for when we didn't have the communications and education that we have today. Now we need one where the people are the ones voting in the policies and the politicians are then implementing them with the help of government departments.

I am hoping my posts aren’t to rambling or negative. I am under my wife’s instructions NOT to go to work today and to try and get some sleep. (Apparently I am not quite “ME” at the moment) I have managed to get an extra 4 hrs sleep but the sun is now to bright even through the curtains.

My Current thoughts:

When I am speaking of “Type A” polices, I am doing so in reference to they are policies that are addressing the status quo. These polices can range from “Me Too” to outright “Brilliant” in what they are addressing. I do not intend to infer any negative connotations on the policies or their creators.

“Type B” policies are about completely changing the status quo. I feel we will need both going into the election.

We need Type A policies because Type B will not happen over night, and if Type B does not work then we will at least have Type A’s in place.

Here is what is going on in my head on how to implement Type B concept
1. As per the suggestion on “What Next?”, we pick a site or town to trial the concept.
2. This area is then zoned as a “Special Economic Zone”.
3. An imaginary and/or real boundary zone is ringed / controlled by NZ Customs which monitors the flow of goods and services. We need to monitor these because we will need to ascertain what it takes to become a “Self Sustaining Town/City”.
4. A business I will call “NZ inc” will be set-up and operate from inside the zone. When any goods or services that are created within the zone pass through to outside the zone they will incur the labour / material costs that they would have incurred had those goods or services been generated outside the zone.
5. Any monetary gain that is generated from this transaction may or may not be taxed, but the proceeds are used by NZ inc for the benefit of those living in the zone.

Attracting Businesses to the Zone:

1. Fully sustainable Towns / Cities are going to be required if we are going to colonise planets such as the Moon or Mars.
2. Companies such as Tesla come to mind as (If I am not mistaken) Eon Musk is looking at starting a colony on Mars. If we can persuade him to base some of his manufacturing plants within the zone so his engineers can have a simulated environment to work with.
3. This concept work / knowledge we could offer to other companies / countries with the intention of sharing the knowledge for all to benefit.
4. The businesses will need to meet the self sustaining needs of the community.

Following the "What Next" threads on Facebook. Someone is starting to post links to The Venus Project pages.

https://www.thevenusproject.com/faq/universal-basic-income-means-achieving-venus-project/

And no, it is not me.

How about Solarpunk instead??
http://www.hopesandfears.com/hopes/city/life/215749-solarpunk