Please restore posting functionality on groups created before compulsory subscriptions

Hi Strypey. Thanks for voicing your concern. As one who joined Loomio some years ago as a pay if you can service, I feel sad to see the erosion of that position through financial imperatives, and I think you make an important suggestion. I have a lot of empathy too for the Loomio organisation who need to eat. They do a great deal to be responsive to clients and typically offer us outstanding service.

My organisation Gene Keys was in its infancy when we joined. It then moved to a place where it could afford to pay the basic. Our own organisation is going through a process of change where financial issues have flavoured recent decisions. It does feel like an erosion too at a time when the world is in imbalance and we pioneers for a different way of organising need to stand together and stand firm.

I do think it would be very helpful if those of us who have been in Loomio from early on can be acknowledged somehow and even perhaps allowed to continue on original terms. I have not seen the notice you mention but I did see that we in Gene Keys can invite another 54 members before we are obliged to 'upgrade'. I would have liked for us to have some kind of acknowledgement as perhaps of 'grandparent' status.

Hi Midi, thanks for your support. You won't have seen that message because your group is on an active subscription plan. Without the financial support of organizations like yours we would not be here today - it is critical for sustainability and growth, and means everything to us.

For clarity, Gene Keys is on one of our earlier 'Gold' subscription plans that had a 100 member limit. In the pricing changes we've made since then, we have not required earlier customers to change and have 'grand parented' plans.

We are focused on building Loomio into a financially successful business with an ethical revenue model based on fair exchange for value. We are regularly reviewing pricing to meet varying customer needs, and there will be more changes ahead.

I do hope we can restore a general free offer for community groups in future - for now we invite a conversation with any specific group in need via contact.

Hi Michael and thanks for the clarity. I did not remember our Gold subscription having any member limit at the time when we signed up. 😄

Thanks for raising this Strypey. As you've been part of our journey from the beginning you'll appreciate our need to insure Loomio is sustainable now and for the future.

We have progressively attempted to find a model that can support a small (at times skeleton) team while continuing to develop. This is absolutely necessary for Loomio to survive and grow and continue to support community groups around the world.

The specific message on old 'free' group plans links to a letter where we described plan changes and invite a conversation.

We introduced a special plan for unfunded community groups at just $1 per person per year. Most community groups that have a problem contributing financially have contacted us and we have been generous in our response and dealing with specific situations.

I invite you and any community members to contact us about specific groups.

Thanks for the prompt reply. A few points:

The core point I'm making is that the Loomio Cooperative made a mutually beneficial agreement with the groups who joined on a pay-what-you-can plan. Gratis usage for them, testing and feedback (and tolerance of hiccups and bugs) on an in-development service for you. IMHO you have a moral obligation, if not a legal contract, to honour that agreement. Just as you have with groups that joined on a paid plan, under previous pricing regimes.

Over the years, I've asked a number of times whether to advise groups wanting to use Loomio to self-host, reducing the drain on the Loomio.org hosting. Every time, I've been discouraged from doing that, because the bulk of your costs are not those of hosting, but of paying staff. So having a bunch of groups leave the service would not save you much money, if any. Chances are it wouldn't make you any money either. Most groups who can afford to pay for their use of Loomio already do, so the vast majority of of those kicked off the pay-what-you-can plan will have no choice but to go elsewhere.

What this would cost you is a great deal of goodwill. I, for one, would feel disinclined to help with any further beta testing or UX feedback, or with promotion of Loomio in the software freedom and platform cooperative movements. I would be unwilling to encourage anyone to enter into a paid agreement for the use of Loomio.org, when previous agreements about pay-what-you-can usage have not been honoured. In fact, there's a good chance. I doubt I'm alone in feeling this way.

I encourage all the members of the Loomio Cooperative to rethink this decision. The potential benefits seem low, and the potential costs seem high.

Hey Strypey, I'm one of the founding members of the Loomio co-op but I'm not involved in the day-to-day decisions these days, so I participate in this conversation with one foot in and one foot out.

I do feel a sense of "moral obligation" to people like you who have supported me personally and us collectively for many years. That sense of obligation means I want to have this conversation openly with you and other members of the coop. It's not clear in my mind that anyone was explicitly promised lifetime free use of the hosted version of Loomio though.

I hear that this decision risks a loss of goodwill. I'm wondering if @Rob Guthrie or @Michael Elwood-Smith could provide some extra data & input. Are you open to the idea of having some of the very old free groups "grandfathered"? I'm not sure what that would involve technically. E.g. how many active non-paying groups are there that started say, earlier than 2015?

This is a terrible time to need my response. I'm the primary caregiver for my mum who only has days remaining.

This is my personel view not that of Loomio.

I feel like Loomio should not be forced to stay in an unhealthy relationship. The code is still free, your data is your data. The hosting charge is a dollar per person per year. Weve been saying people need to pay for 5+ years to meaningfully contribute to the relationship.

we have been trying our best but we simply can't find a way to give hosted service away for free and survive. i feel our first obligation is to ensure the survival of Loomio

Relationships change and that's ok -we're not extorting you.

Hi Rob. I feel your first obligation is to your Mum and yourself. Loomio and we will still be here when you again have space for other things. Sending you and her loving wishes for this extraordinary time in your life together and beyond...

Kia ora Rob, really sorry to hear that you are losing your Mum. I remember the loss of my grandmother - who I was as close to as my parents - forced me to drop everything for a few months. Kia manawanui e hoa.

I can appreciate the need for a revenue stream to maintain sustainability, but usability must be a key priority to create a good user experience. Over the past couple of years there has been a steady decrease in the keyboard functionality, and those groups with assistive technology members are at a disadvantage. It is disappointing, as Loomio at one time was a leader in accessibility. Standard keyboard functionality, and standard user interface like WCAG, is critical for nonmouse users. Buttons lack text labels, images lack alternative text, tab panels lack keyboard controls, and general keyboard navigation has become frustrating. So, groups that are serious about including disabled members, will count the cost of usability. I appreciate the challenges of a small development group, but success in a competitive digital world does depend upon user satisfaction. Accessibility standards do not have to be expensive, if maintained as an ongoing skill set.