Seems we have people running multiple accounts on here. The people know who they are- your IP address is the same- please stop spamming the Loomio Group to prove a point.

It's not cute, please stop before someone else takes the time to compare users on here.

Justin if you have information (with documentation) share it. Do not simply cause discord. <.<

Justin, I have seen no indication of that; the names I have seen here match voices I have heard on the calls.

The whole friggin move to loomio was based on widening participation and being more easily accessible and transparent than email and phone calls for some.

I don't agree with any of this checking up on people and vetting. Everyone in this group is known personally by someone else, either through online or on ground work.
There should be a presumption of integrity and that people here want to work together on the national gathering.

I see Sea's proposal to remove you got closed early, and you are here, Justin, so I assumed the group is making a move to move on.

While individual and group behaviors are very important, and should be discussed, I propose, for the good of the gathering, that this divisive and distracting battle y'all have created end or move to a group to settle it. I've actually been embarrassed and ashamed this week as I saw this unfold within our own ranks. I know many occupiers have already been through that in the camps - I didn't camp, so never have.

As far as I'm concerned this is a draw. Justin, if you reflect on the fact that most of us have worked together now for 4.5 months, you were the new and unknown factor except to those of us tuned into the NYC scene, and probably twitter folk. You came on strong, permeating every corner of loomio with material that had already been covered.or that no one was ready for, and in what appeared to be a condescending way. Can you find it in your heart to forgive the injustice of getting removed from loomio, cease with the accusations, and move on towards creating a great natgat?

Let's take this as a learning experience. Set up guidelines so we are all working on the same page. people who can't stand each other, don't interact! Don't be in the same groups. There's plenty for all of us to do.

We have a gathering to pull together in 11 weeks.

Thanks, Jackie; it has been a bad experience, but we have all learned from it, I think, and you are right—there is too much to do to go on. Now, this is supposed to be a “water” discussion; can we get back to that?

Water is a serious issue for the safety of the gathering. There's a Stage 2 Water shortage in Sacramento
http://portal.cityofsacramento.org/utilities/conservation

In 2012 we spent a lot of time talking about amplification of speakers (we ended up using a loudspeaker) and no time on Water needs. Disaster ensued http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002889222

From the point of view of an attendee, who was not involved in planning NatGat2012, it was not a disaster at all—big orange coolers of mint-infused water were always there, brought by Occupy Supply, I thought—though I later learned that it was basically Steven C. No idea what went on “backstage”, though, and of course water in quantity will be needed in Sacramento, despite any water shortage.

I started this discussion hoping to unify around water and the corruption (thank you to Julia Clark) surrounding water. Elders told me that any other focus would have less influence. From water and the corruption surrounding it, all of our themes and conflicts can be derived. So I adopt corruption and water inclusively. Nothing is excluded.

Such a focus could be influential on how Governor Brown chooses to treat us. Jerry Brown is shrewd and environmentalists do need to keep pressure on him. He was very creative his first term. We have a chance to help him be even more creative this time around..

Sally G's last statement may reveal some things. "... water in quantity will be needed in Sacramento, despite any water shortage."
There are limits to the environment and generally (even with water) the limits are either couched in terms of (vague because of weak historical knowledge) "biblical" references or (unknown because of mathematical sleight of hand) "scientific" references.
So far, very few people can question science. Yet the science may determine the possibility of using a lot of water when there isn't much water.
I then would like to open a scientific (interlude) element to our discussion. What the elders told me implied that the reason we're trashing our water, is because of things similar to the bible and similar to our current scientific understandings, yet different than both. That is what I hope this water discussion leads to. A new sociology and a new mathematics that makes it easier for Occupy to take the lead on water, which is what no one else may be capable of doing.
The improved sociology and mathematics has to do with Karl Marx's discovery of "Surplus Value". It also has to do with the formulation "f=ma" which Newton came up with.

O.K., written late at night. I realize that there is not endless water, we do need to repsect that, but if you plan a gathering, you have to keep all the attendees from dehydrating, reasonably comfortable. I am interested in what you are saying about “the science may determine the possibility of using a lot of water when there isn’t much water”; are you talking about reuse of water, such as the grey-water/black-water systems of our more responsible buildings?

Sure. Reusing water is a derivative of wanting to live within limits. However, I think people in general have very vague ideas of limits given the "biblical" confusion and "mathematical sleight of hand". How we use water (in any form) needs to be understood by everyone, while the experts have convinced us that only they know the answer. The elders are pointing to new science, new math, and new sociology to handle the question. We need a science group to discuss this.

I would like to be in that group. Not an expert, but interested.

Science is really important. For us, our technology is the highest science. In important ways "our technology" grew out of "Near" Eastern military usurpation of mathematicians like Archimedes. The science of water is very different and involves feeling. I've suggested in the thread "The Sociology of ...", that we are overlooking modern socialist science. I've discovered a connection between socialist science and the Medicine Wheel's Four Directions.

In our early discussions we talked about Water Air Earth and Fire being the themes of the day. With the drought in California so serious and the fire season starting early (google "firenado"), which effects the air quality, and the oil spilling on the streets on LA, it will be a foundational act to make the themes of the day "elemental"

Tens of thousands of gallons of Oil Spill in LA http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-oil-spill-odor-advisory-20140515-story.html

Firenadoes in San Diego http://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/firenado-how-those-whirling-wildfires-turn-killer-twisters-n107431

Air Quality in Orange County http://www.ocregister.com/articles/inland-614516-cloudy-coast.html

California Drought - How Long? How Bad? http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/california-drought/

[continued] That leaves just 2 days for themes, and it does not seem to be worth choosing themes for just those days. Also, I would not want to chill participation in any open-space sessions by those who might not be able to attend on the appropriately-themed day.

What are the "themes" of the Capitol day and the Mime troupe? "Capitol" and "mime"? This concept was brought up long before the Capitol was chosen or the mimes were contacted.
There's enough time to shape this into something that will encourage wide participation and address our problems on an elemental level

Putting the concerns about the first and last day aside, I was not thrilled with the concept from the first, because of my interest in making this event more participatory, bottom-up rather than preplanned. If someone is coming for only a day or two and their intended presentation does not fit the day’s theme, what happens?

I have tended to refrain from chiming in on conversation about theme, but I'll toss in my 2 cents here...

I think that there may be a larger diversity of topics and forms of expression than the last two years. Last year, the back-to-back-to-back lectures happened in part because we had themed days and a person bottom-lining each day. (This was made more problematic by the fact that, until the last day, we were confined to being inside a building.) And to piggy-back onto what Sally said, I would not want to discourage people from leading sessions because they might not be able to attend on the appropriately-themed day. (Sally was concerned about people not attending sessions, and I am concerned about people not giving sessions.)

Tricia, if you (or someone else) can figure out how two of the four element themes can be applied to Thursday and Sunday, it might help garner more affinity towards having these four themes, though it would still make the two open space days have to fit within the other two element themes.

[OTOH, if the themes for the days weren't a matched set (like the four elements), that'd be a different thing, such that the themes of the two days with big special events, and then themes for the other days could be suggested. But I fear that that's rather more complicated than we'd probably want.]

attending or giving sessions, same concern

p.s. yes, @allstr33ts submitted the elemental themes early on - Feb. I would say.

I agree with Sea Completely, well said. In recent years i learned we can and do directly influence the world we experience. Count me in with those who believe we can change the world with our thoughts and beliefs; we get what we focus on. The news weather is intentionally distorted, they do not accurately report storm results and blame snow & rain for all types disaster. Created fear. I wasn't aware of the drought until Jan, nor any of those other bad things. Focused this weekend is snow & rain in couple days. I will happily support the choice. Here is a good water vid: http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/water-great-mystery/

More than one theme can be running along other themes. Like any festival that has more than one stage. Fiddle players over in section A, rock-abilly in section C. People like multi-tasking. If they can check out more than one thing, it can lend them to learn more for the time they spend. Good Value. Time well spent, etc..

Will the success of our venture be if people enjoy themselves? Or will it be if the nation and world takes notice?

I fear that what you are describing Julia, is more white privilege. We'll go home happy. And the powers that be will laugh at our futile efforts, knowing that their butter doesn't comes from us, Rather from the people who couldn't afford to attend because they were forced to churn butter, or, whose honestly built houses are buried under our stages. I fear that, in this case, your use of of the term multi-tasking, has a "white-privileged" New Age taint.

Sea, pick a language. I do not care what word you use.

How about chichichichcih choocho. Will that do for the word?

I used msic because most people have been to a .....
Let me start over.....

Will the success of our venture be if people enjoy themselves? Or will it be if the nation and world takes notice?

Hope for the best plan for the worst
Would you rather everyone have a bad time and the nation and world does not notice?
as the meme from 9gag says: why not both?

I fear that what you are describing Julia, is more white privilege.

you are welcomed to your fear. I realize some folks have such tings.

We’ll go home happy. And the powers that be will laugh

Since when did you care if "the powers that be" laughed?

at our futile efforts,

if you think our efforts are futile, why are you here?

knowing that their butter doesn’t comes from us,

Please, my rules of engagement require no attacks on food . Besides, they are prolly using butter as a sex aid and I'd rather not touch their butt butters. :P

Rather from the people who couldn’t afford to attend because they were forced to churn butter, or, whose honestly built houses are buried under our stages.

Yep, that was why I HIGHLY suggested that we have remote link up for the lots and lots of folks that will not be able to show solidarity in person for more reasons that just being tied to a job or work.

I fear that,

Please with the fear AGAIN...I think you use that word too loosely.
Fear is when you have to actively slow your heart down after going in to a crowded location where everyone knows everyone and you are not sure of your allies to snap a picture of a bad guy who is a bottom feeder feeding on your milk churners, so to speak... Tht's what I did this weekend. What aboot you?

in this case, your use of of the term multi-tasking, has a “white-privileged” New Age taint.
BS. throw that shit at someone else and pick any word in any language you would like for that modern society meaning. Like them, hate them, call them pink pandas for all I care, but there are going to be people that subscribe to modern society. People that watch television while making breakfast and between the microwave dinging their nuked food and espresso machine pressurizing the caffeine fix , check their smart phones for the daily tasks on their calenders.
They should not be exclude, no matter what brand humanoid they happen to be.

If you are just going to preach to folks like me whom shun television & radio, limit moving pictures, and recorded audio, have self contained power, ad nausium , you are going to be singing to the choir.

Have you thought any about how I have to go to the city and what that means? You think I do not know, I will be laughed at for any thing availed for tauting? Has that ever stopped me?

Maybe you need a hug, but quit being so scared, deary.

This is what we're up against..

The New “Water Barons”: Wall Street Mega-Banks are Buying up the World’s Water http://bit.ly/1lVqiMO #ows

@triciafromphilly Thank you, thank you for the article!

horrible. Here in north Jersey, what used to be Hackensack Water became United Water, which was bought by Suez, a French company—still calls itself United Water, but reality is something else. Ugh.
Did anyone see the movie Blue Gold? I did not but it as about the subject.

Here's the Blue and Gold documentary (full length) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1a3tjqQiBI

that sounds good @sallyg so shoot me a list of the events and meem troop gig and ill brainstorm a disign

i used to be a part of the santa cruz screeming mimes as a teenager. we had giant puppets and the lot.. it was so much fun...

Water is extremely important. There have been 50 year droughts on every continent over the last ten years. And the new climate report says that heavy rains have become heavier. So you have a drought followed by an extreme downpour that the ground can't absorb.

Also, some say that Iraq was as much about water as oil.

What does a prospector say when they find gold?
Mine.
... and so begins transfer of wealth from public to private ownership.
I think we should raise awareness water contains the sustaining energy force of life; a community inter-generational asset to be shared under concepts of sustained stewardship, green wholistic living.
We should love, celebrate and appreciate water if we want it to be our friend. I sometimes chuckle seeing a major storm headed toward ca suddenly veer north; because that is what i would do if i was water headed here knowing the disdain many people have to rain, wet or inconvience. If we accept the thought we are part of nature, we should learn how to think like so.

This is first drought since 1978 in ca, and this is only 4th month since this descriptive declaration; during first day of a major 4 day rainstorm that dramatically raised reservoirs; all major ones now over 50% full; folsom is 75% full. 3 years ago was epic rain & snowfall. It changes with our beliefs.
About 85% of water goes to food; we waste half our food. Just saw 1.2 million pound beef recall because of ecoli contamination. How much water into the feed, care, transporting & processing? Meat inspector would be cheaper and more efficient. Barstow turned off our entire city water supply late summer of 2010 because of possible contamination. We are an island with no neighbor to run a hose to, and 5 to 10,000 travelers an hour entering. No drinking, flushing, washing... faucet off no warning, whole city for 4 days +. Well to do bought all store water in first few hours, eye opening experience. Many social links to water. People are not aware.

Someone mentioned early on: the effects of Fracking on water supplies. I for one, think that tied in to this is the issue of advertising: Right now I am seeing on regular TV that ads are pushing Fracking as "green" and that our nation is innovative in exploring this new, environmentally friendly energy source. Of course it is put out by whatever corp is in control at whatever time...but in Idaho, we have Idaho Rising Tide and many different Native American Nations working hard on this. Sometimes it is difficult to focus on which subject, or issue, is most important. While I want to bring cases of bottled water to Sac, I also know the environmental impact of bottled water. However, I will haul away as much recycling as possible (that I can hold) in hopes of still helping. Meanwhile, we could also discuss the impact of bottled water on this nation! It is horrible! With bottles themselves advertising "green" extraction from islands like Fiji, where you know they are exploiting the people and the island to do it! How is that green? Thanks. Toad.

+1 for Brother Carter. Please let him know what we are discussing here.

Maybe Water can alchemicaly transmute all issues into a unified message, where all the issues are expressed, as though dissolved in Water. Our so-called specific "gravitas".

I definitely think water is very important in the issues we want to bring up...if we focus on water...perhaps we can teach as well as protest...every human being needs water...that is a no brainer, so maybe we need to point out that privatizing it will give the rich another way to exploit the poor...as the poor cannot have access to water, as much of Africa is operating, the 1% becoming the 2% is able to enact a mass genocide...even in America...

I think this may be beyond banks, and their conspiracies, but even though still financial, we may be capitalizing on people's basic needs.

I'm rethinking water. Sacramento GA wants to protest local banks, police brutality and homelessness, in conjunction with our Urban Outreach Committee. Dispossessed sovereign nationals need their water back, and descendants of slaves need Congress to make good the "bad checks it issues". The reason I worked so hard for water, was because Elders said it was above and beyond other issues, in importance. If Congress made good on checks, certainly they'd only do it for certain people. And if California allowed the Wineman Wintus at Shasta their water by not raising the dam height, that's all they'd get. How can we learn from the Elders, which would mean focusing on water (we desperately need to learn), and also pay the checks. IE, what kind of civil disobedience can we do in Sacramento, that would defend the Wintus, put pressure on Wells Fargo to pay checks, and mobilize the power of the Sacramento GA and Urban Outreach.

A major piece of legislation funding the development and improvement of water-related infrastructure passed Congress last week for the first time in nearly a decade, and President Barack Obama is expected to sign the bill soon. “This law will facilitate the privatization of water systems and prioritize funding for privatized systems,” Mary Grant, a researcher for the water program at Food & Water Watch, a watchdog group here, told MintPress News. http://ecowatch.com/2014/05/29/new-law-facilitate-water-privatization/

Thanks Tricia. That seems like something to rally against linked to the most important element, local California concerns, privatization, climate change, government corruption, and of course corporations.