Also btw, anyone been working on the donations page?

We should probably start drafting some rules for our community - who has responsibility for things like project donations etc - those need to be written down.

Btw, Flattr has payouts to PayPal - and in fact better the Flattr money can be used to do things like flattr's to devs and projects we like, for example, without the necessary need to pay out.

Oh link to flattr non-profit page: https://flattr.com/support/charityaccount

I don't agree on this reasoning. If the Flattr donations were paid out, they would go to the FSSN since Flattr payouts are via PayPal. But we can get some love and show some love as a project without ever touching cash.

I think we're just shooting ourselves in the leg if we go all bureaucracy in everything..

I think we’re just shooting ourselves in the leg if we go all bureaucracy in everything..

Yes, we are. That's the way it is. There is nothing we can change about this.

If the Flattr donations were paid out, they would go to the FSSN since Flattr payouts are via PayPal.

To be legally legal (wait, that's a fucked up sentence, nvm), the account has to be created by the FSSN (at least in their name), which they - given the information I got some months ago are still valid - will not do.

I'm really sorry for blocking this, but I cannot unblock this until we got some statements from the FSSN itself (heyas dudes, I know you are reading this!) or somebody who knows better (Maxwell for example).

It sounds to me the whole FSSN thing was just one big bad idea. Maybe we should start thinking of other options.

Other opinions on the Flattr thing vs legality? I really wouldn't start worrying about nitpicking things here - it's not like any of us are legally responsible.

What do you think the FSSN will do if we create a Flattr account and add it to the project page - but never cash out so really we never see the money? Sue us?

Extended across holidays, maybe get more than two opinions :)

Well, for me the problem is still the same, we need people, not money. We need to answer "who do we want to pay" before "how do we want to pay"

I disagree. Of course we can keep not accepting donations ever :)

I think: let's discuss how we want to organise (the monthly IRC meeting will help with this). Once we have decided how we want to organise, we'll know if and how we can use donations and then it'll be a good time to start asking for them.

... or we can add a Flattr button now and just let people Flattr the project if they want to :P

But we can't get the donations to FSSN that way. The donations wouldn't go to the foundation, so we couldn't accept them. At least, that's what it sounds as though is the case.

Quoting my earlier comment;

I don’t agree on this reasoning. If the Flattr donations were paid out, they would go to the FSSN since Flattr payouts are via PayPal. But we can get some love and show some love as a project without ever touching cash.

We could accept Flattr donations without ever paying out and support our devs and other FOSS projects this way. No cash = No FSSN involved.

Guys, don't be so bureaucratic ;)

Guys, don’t be so bureaucratic

I'm not being bureaucratic - I simply don't believe we have the structure at the moment to be able legally to accept payment except through the FSSN, and they won't accept any payment except via Paypal.

It is possible that now that Diaspora is no longer incorporated in USA, the restrictions for US-based organisations (which I think was what made the FSSN link necessary) no longer apply, but this would need to be investigated and definitively worked out before we just decide to go ahead and accept payments extra-FSSN.

In any case, we need a mechanism for distributing payments, and to decide what we need money for. E.g. one of Maxwell's rationales for instituting the donation structure was so that Jonne could be paid, and Jonne said 'I don't want to be paid.' I think putting lots of work into establishing a means to accept donations before even knowing whether we have any use for those donations is a bit arse-about-face, if you'll excuse the language.

Oh blaa blaa blaa guys - let us not try to support anyone ever :P

I think putting lots of work

It takes 2 minutes to embed a Flattr button.

one of Maxwell’s rationales for instituting the donation structure was so that Jonne could be paid, and Jonne said ‘I don’t want to be paid.’

So because Jonne doesn't want money we shouldn't accept donations - to pay for things like server independence and say thanks to projects like Loomio? I know we haven't defined how to work with donations - but hey why should we because we clearly are not accepting any ;)

Hmm maybe one could set up some project independent dummy non-legal organization to accept virtual donations and pay back to developers and projects that we use, and to pay for features via open source support sites + even support pods. Maybe that is the only solution..

Personally the whole "PayPal only" thing about the FSSN is pretty much killing the whole point of donations imho - PayPal sucks. I'm not sure I want to endorse donations via PayPal.

Flattr only takes a cut if money is paid out. And other virtual options exist, like BTC, to make sure the project is never in touch with money, but can still support our volunteers and our friends.

So because Jonne doesn’t want money we shouldn’t accept donations

No, of course that's not what I said. That was an example of saying 'we need to raise money' when it turned out the 'need' to raise money was based on at least one false premise.

I haven't said we don't need to raise money. What I am saying is that as far as I can see, no one actually knows whether we need to raise money or not, or indeed how money raised would benefit the project. Some people thing we should raise money, some think we shouldn't, and many probably simply don't have a strong opinion one way or the other; but no one seems to know whether the Diaspora project needs to be able to raise money or not.

What I'm trying to say is let's have that discussion before trying to raise money, so at least we have a clear idea of whether or not the project can benefit from money raised and if so, how we can target that money. You make a couple of suggestions about what could be done with money, but let's have a proper discussion about what could be done, so there's some proper agreement; not just assume that there are lots of things that money could usefully be spent on. And then we can tell people what sorts of things their money would go towards.

It takes 2 minutes to embed a Flattr button.

Maybe, but the point I was making was the work needed to establish clearly whether or not creating a mechanism to bypass the FSSN in accepting donations could potentially jeopardise the project in some way. There was so much hoo-hah about the need for a proper non-profit status and vehicle for accepting money for legal purposes, that I think we would have to establish properly whether it would cause problems to ditch this. I simply don't know the answer to this, and neither do you.

Hmm maybe one could set up some project independent dummy non-legal organization to accept virtual donations and pay back to developers and projects that we use, and to pay for features via open source support sites + even support pods. Maybe that is the only solution..

Maybe. Let's find out whether this would be possible in Diaspora's model, and whether bypassing the FSSN in this way would be allowable for a project established in the way Diaspora has been.

PayPal sucks. I’m not sure I want to endorse donations via PayPal.

Agreed. But it's what we have been landed with.

All I'm saying is that this whole accepting money thing appears to be potential a legal minefield. So let's not just wade into accepting money outside of the FSSN without first establishing that doing so would not cause any problems for the project. Surely that's just sensible.

Maybe. Let’s find out whether this would be possible in Diaspora’s model, and whether bypassing the FSSN in this way would be allowable for a project established in the way Diaspora has been.

You misunderstood. I didn't mean the project would be involved in any way. I think individual action might be the only way forward. I've written down some ideas, might post them once I clean them a bit.

It'll be great if you can find a way to bypass all the institutional stuff. I look forward to reading ityour ideas.