We would send to active members who have paid their membership.

Toon is working on that list already. Monica created the image we'd use as a header.

Hm I don't get it. Why not sending to any pirates, regardless whether they paid their membership or not? We are not sending reminder for the membership fee anyway, so that would let them informed about this as well. The good thing is that we would already have this list ready.

Good :) Could we see this header somewhere?

A press release ????

Hmm. I increasingly notice that Loomio is just another Facebook where we can argue and bicker for times on end without actually getting anywhere. That will result, as it has done in the past, in us not getting organised and thus not being able to give the general population the political alternative they need.

I attached the header to my previous post above, but it doesn't show. But it is part of the "So? Agenda OK" thread here on Loomio as well.

I'm not answering your question. As mentioned, this (Loomio) is not at all a productive way of working. I am willing to talk to you. Here's my number: 0485 977 727.

I do not have the same experience...

If well done progression is possible on loomio . The point is that we as Pirates are still on to many different platforms. It is a labyrinth....

Websites / facebooks / wiki / pads / loomio / slack a more consistent way of working is certainly of great importance....

More research is on the way .... In the mean time we already need a 'minister' of simplification..... :-)

Except the FACT that it is PUBLIC. Copy / paste this curent page link : https://www.loomio.org/d/KhXLGfau/convocation in a Private Window of your browser and you will see the difference. Try the same with any of BPU Facebook stuff... that's the difference.

Transparency. Period.

proposal moved to brainstromingzone

Please, could we try to avoid off-topic?
So, since you aren't answering my question about membership, I can safely assume that there is no reason for not sending the invitation mail to any pirates.
You seem to complain a lot about people doing nothing, but when someone is proposing his help, you start arguing about something else. Maybe I'm wrong to say this, but this is how I feel it.
I will just do it my way, that is writing on the piratepad I linked the convocation letter, and then send it via mailchimp. I will of course ask for everybody's inputs and approvals before sending it. Unless you have something better to propose...

Technically, you should mail all people who have done a payment in 2013, because they are still member today, as there was no "reminder" to renew their membership.
As such, they are still members.
Plus, this GA is also a reach-out to all Belgian Pirates, a wake-up call so to speak. By mailing them all, old crews might become active again.

Hey Christophe,

I agree with you, but this is impossible for me (or anyone) atm. I have made a membership list with the information that I've been able to collect, but prior the last GA I cannot check (in time) who paid when. Thus, I can only send to the people whe paid there or afterwards. I hope for your understanding in this matter.

So I see that you sent the convocation. Thank you for this great team work and transparency (!). Now, I must say that the French translation is almost unreadable.
By the way, this is the best way to get people frustrated.
But I shouldn't complain, since this is democracy, right? Oh, wait. It isn't...

Well, I asked for a French translation here on Loomio and the only person who had time to answer was also a Dutch speaker I believe, so if that is the case I'm sorry but It'll have to do - there was no time to wait any more. If you want, in the future I'll ask you personally to send a translation? That way the quality can only increase, and you get the chance to contribute!

Before translating an «official» (fuck that word) text like an invitation to a GA with a sample version of an Agenda, «we» thought that «we» had first to agree on the content before giving time to translate.

But the content, the place and the date was probably already decided (that is a supposition of mine and it is written in my name only).

By the way, thanks for the invitation sent from your gmail account. I really do not understand why «we» still have pirateparty.be mail accounts or Mailchimp newsletter (and yes, I am sarcastic).

But please, do not take it personally because YES «we» are a mess! :smiley:

Hey people,

I must have made the mistake assuming that the information that was given to me today when I asked for it was already agreed upon; for this I'm more than willing to apologize. I'm not familiar with Loomio and frankly totally not on my 'territory' handling the mail traffic of the party.

What I did do was try to make a more or less usable membership list, something that seemed to be completely missing a year ago (unimaginable as it is). When people told me that I had to send an invitation to the whole list a few days ago, there was still a lot of work on that list, so I've tried to complete it as good as possible. The deadline, I was told, was today, so today I asked for a translation of the agenda in French (I made the Dutch one quickly myself), and I didn't check the French one that was offered to me, as I felt time was ticking and it was expected from me that I handled as quickly as possible. That was another mistake, and also for this I do apologize if it has gotten people frustrated.

What I won't apologize for is acting. People asked my help, and the past week I've worked a lot to be able to send the invitation for the GA (which I'm not working on, so I'm not familiar with the discussions) to as many people as possible. I'm more than happy to learn and to do better next time, but please don't start ridiculising the effort made by many people to organize this event, especially not because of my mistakes. We're all here with good intentions right?

To Thierry: thanks, I won't :)

I don't understand...
Unless there is information missing, why have the convocations been sent already while we're still talking about the content of it?
I have not received mine, so I don't even know what's in it but apparently it contains that google translation?

Without «knowing it» ... it's seem that all we are discussing here on Loomio WAS already decided days ago.

Thanks our core values, transparency, democracy, sharing ... and :rabbit: pops out of a :hole:

Now you know what happend during last election. Deadlines, pressure, tension, misunderstanding, mistakes, conflict.

It's a good practice.

@all Please keep in mind that we are all volunteers here.

@jovver , you might want to learn what happened to the last coreteam before you make your next move.

I was not going to come to Loomio anymore, but I make an exception for you @vincent15 .

• sigh *

Before I make my next "move"? Do you all think that I am trying to do anything but trying to organize the mess the PPBE is in? I have stated time and again: I am not doing this for me. I have a good life, a great house, a nice car, good work, a fantastic income, even more fantastic kids etc. I do not need a basic income, actually am quite fine with privacy, banking leaves to be desired, transparency must increase. Oh well.

I organised. A LOT by -- the -- book although some here fail to see that. If open meetings, open minutes, open clips, open drinks and an invitation to call (my personal number is right here in this thread) are not enough to warrant "transparancy", I don't know what is. Loomio? How many pirates are on here?

I've tried to assemble and motivate a LOT of people over the last few months to gather towards a common, democratically created goal only to come here - another time investment for me with a full-time job, a family and a book to write - and see persons misinterpret explicit things I say, misquote me, judge me for things I didn't and won't do etcetera. I see words of mine hand-picked and pulled out of context just to make a point when there isn't one to give.

If pirate democracy means that each and e-ve-ry-thing needs to be decided upon democratically, not only in squad meetings, crew meetings, minutes, videos and talks, then pirates will miss their intended goal. We can all sit here and shout at each other for aeons. Let's create that invitation then - a "democratically created one". I'll immediately create a poll for the first letter we need to use. I say it's an "A" - all agree? Next step is the second letter.

Oh. And about these "decisions" which were made: where, when, the text of the invitation.

Where's been discussed in Gembloux. Since Mechelen is organising, "it is only normal that the GA is here" was common consensus. "Also, it's never been here in the past," was another. Should there have been somebody against, we listened!

When's been discussed in function of Iceland, starting early August in Recess of Recession. It has been postponed to "as late as possible".

The text? Yeah. That must have been a "decision" of mine. Nobody else wrote it or had any intention to. No. The only thing which is being said here is: "I don't like it. Let's create a pad for it." An empty one of course, as actually writing it - that's for somebody else.

I really apologize for investing all this time Loomio-guys. I merely seem to be able to upset people here. I'll apologize for wanting to organize too. For having these (open-invitation) meetings "in the background". I am upsetting you. Well, these I have never spoken to at least. As others, who have been talking to me, mostly were encouraging.

focus on our common goal; don't focus on the words needed to express it
^ for crying out loud

Thank you for this explanation, @toonvanboxstael !
Hopefully we learn from this and improve it for next time.

I forgot something: tomorrow there's a meeting in Mechelen I have extremely undemocratically decided to organize in order to get over the differences concerning the articles (statutes). Since you all are so worried about them - can you all join? According to Nicolas - Malines is easy to reach by train.

As well as take up the role I picked up to moderate, steer and (try to) motivate.

It seems I can't.

@toonvanboxstael I have just a question: Do you actually read the discussions on Loomio? In short, we were several pirates who disagreed to send the invitation as it was, and thus we offered to write another one based on the convocation for the last GA. I also added that we shouldn't focus too much on deadlines, since it would have a negative impact on quality (due to stress and lack of time). That's not a big deal if the convocation is sent one week late. We had worse situations in the past.
So, I thought all this was clear enough, though. This is why I got frustrated, because I have the feeling that everything we say here is not heard.
Anyway, thanks for your apologies, they are much appreciated.

@jovver Dude, we just don't care about your financial situation. I mean, I'm so happy to hear that you are earning so much money, you must be so happy in your life. I will say it again: for me this sounds as an argument from authority and maybe some showing off.
Now, I really do wonder whether you think I am stupid, because I told you that I was abroad for my studies until today. Thus, making a call phone was not an option for me, and the pad was empty (well, now it isn't, and thanks to the one who started it) since I obviously couldn't take care of this before coming back home.
Please, stop acting the fool, it doesn't suit you well. We both know that this is not what I meant by a democratic and transparent process.
You might notice that I am only arguing about the text "decision", and nothing else. I am not questioning the way the location and date were chosen.

I will start writing a proper convocation letter tomorrow, because the trip was really tiring (btw, this is not normal that I have to give reasons for this). The question being, does everybody agree on sending a second convocation mail?

You could make a proposal on this?

But does it really matter?

Maybe it is better to keep on working on the agenda?

On the vzw/asbl bylaws proposition....
and so many other hot items ....

@hgo much like I don't care about your weak excuse of being abroad then? Pot, kettle much?

That letter had mostly positive answers. Some other topics leveled up with less unanimity. I believe there's one just now which leveled even if somebody had blocked it - but not sure here.

??? highjacked? what is there to highjack ?

As far as I know the Pirates and his General Assembly are open for everyone who subscribes the Pirate basics.....

The right to vote is only for members who fulfilled there contribution fee (1 € at this stage)

" Mailchimp list has a list of members of the movement " in this case they only adress movement members....

What are you fearing Jov Ver ???? Could you explain this clear, so everyone can understand it ????

I think that we want to grow as movement ...

and direct democracy - transpancy should be the core of our way of working ;-)

@HgO If you are so desperate about making a better translation, ... you could have done it instead of complaining and we could have sent it already again (2 mails is not spam and I don't see why we need a democratic decision to inform). In the meantime, people at least know there will be something. And, indeed, I did the translation in record Google Translate speed so someone native French could make it better. Do - O/A- cracy, damn it!

Again... It wasn't possible for me at that time.

@janvanopstal Yup, good idea :)
I'm not sure what does really matter here. I just know that for me, this does.

@hgo I (seem to) agree with you that the things Jovver says, and the way he says them are both very unpleasant, but he decided yesterday to leave Loomio, so be it. He's gone from here, let's move on.

I will help you for this convocation 2.0, but I believe it has to be an erratum - a correction based on the first convocation sent - and that it should not be too different. Otherwise, we send contradicting messages to Pirates who might not understand anything anymore if we do that.

But be cool please, this situation is annoying for everyone, let's not make it worse ;)

@vanecx you don't need to play the drama queen either. You can also say "with more details". I don't see how they could be contradictory.

Not to fast, not to slow..... easy going, going far...

Let's do it the way it should be done .... ?

For the legal side.... the convocation has been send on time.

So we are not in a hurry...

For the democratic way .... it is clear that Jovver was not informed about Loomio...
In fact .... many Pirates are not aware of this workflow. And it is not yet approved either...
it is a temporarily experiment. Other more adapted systems will be tested also if Robert Colson (not on loomio yet ... asked him his emailadres) )

Let's start to make more pirates aware....

Part of the convocation?

Then the agenda....
Why not making a new thread first, so we all can vote in the drafting zone about all events

In short: I fear eternal babble without being able to offer society the alternative it needs.

Don't you?

Do you need help to organize the assembly and make sure the timing is respected?

Because keeping an information secret for fear of loosing control during the decision process is not exactly the alternative I want to offer to society.
I agree it makes things less predictable but we are talking about integrity and consistency here.

I quote the basistext: http://lepartipirate.be/texte-de-base-des-pirates

"5.2 L'information qui concerne la gestion publique doit être accessible publiquement, dans des formats de données ouverts et sous des formes qui garantissent une facilité d'utilisation optimale.
5.3 Les Pirates considèrent la transparence et l'objectivité comme fondamentales. Le public doit être correctement informé pour prendre les bonnes décisions de façon démocratique, pour maintenant et pour plus tard.
5.4 Responsabilité et participation vont de pair : les citoyen·ne·s ne peuvent assumer de responsabilité que s'ils peuvent également prendre les initiatives et les décisions.
5.5 Les Pirates croient que toutes et tous ont le droit d'être impliqué⋅e⋅s dans les décisions qui les touchent. Tout·e citoyen·ne a également le droit de savoir comment ces décisions sont prises."

Is the language barrier really that big?

(1)
Give me ONE example of information which is kept "secret" @vincent15 or @hgo or @vanecx ? The place? The time? The articles (statutes)? Even the invitation text? The proceedings of all meetings? Which one? Fact is, if you are willing to finally step beyond that incomprehensible defensive, and sometimes plain insulting wall of yours, you'd have to admit that all is done in line with the party's basic text.

(2)
By allowing literally everybody to walk in on a Pirate GA you'd actually have the possibility to loose your Party's integrity and consistency! Reasoning? Imagine, at the door, 200 NV-A supporters proclaiming they're pirates and ruining the possibility to actually decide some things? Preventing pirates from being able to finally address the important parts of the party (organisation, theme-based squads etc). How? By filibustering on worthless items. As far as I understood, it is one of the things which happened in the past - and which we would not like to go through again. Am I mistaking here?

(3)
The results of the live meetings, where quite a lot of pirates have invested more or less time in have - and I state that for the zillionth time here - been PUBLIC. What we have done is entirely in-line with your point 5.2, 5.3 (yes, even the "democratic" part), , 5.4 and 5.5 - not a single shortcut has been taken.

edit: btw. Today's meeting was great again. People attended from close to Ath, to Bruges (120km drive - single leg), to Diksmuide (153km drive - single leg!) to Antwerp, to Leuven. You know what, everybody was able to speak up, to discuss, to talk. All on a sunny Saturday. We came to a joint understanding of the articles - completely, democratically, transparently - in fact, people were able to follow proceedings on the Google Doc from all around the world. Where were you all?

Yes the language barrier is really that big...

and proves you are not aware of it or do not want to take care about it....(sic)
Not only the language, but the communication in general can be much better.

"We came to a joint understanding of the articles - completely, democratically, transparently - in fact, people were able to follow proceedings on the Google Doc from all around the world. Where were you all?"

But there was no announcement of this Google event and it was allowed to anonymous participants....

2) this is a pure demagogic statement. NV-A supporters do not comply to the basic text of the pirates.

3) We have been setting up a working livestream experiment from your home with your smartphone

A first attempt on previous meeting did not work.
On the last meeting there was not even a attempt.

There was not even a communication about it....

There are pirates who do not have the time, money or due to ecologic reasons do not want to make a trip to Mechelen. With lifestreams you could really show the good will of making this a open way... I could follow a lifestream of a fischerman in Mechelen.

But I did follow the lifestream of the Dalai Lama in Brussels.... about power and caring...
A good intake....

@janvanopstal seriously?

Jan, wil jij nu bewust, elk woord van me verkeerd interpreteren? Zie jij nu écht niet wat ik bedoelde met wat ik bovenaan schreef?

1) "and proves you are not aware of it or do not want to take care about it (the language barrier)...."

... terwijl het net een zekere ikke was die op Facebook de oproep lanceerde om aub in het Engels of het Frans te posten?!?

"But there was no announcement of this Google event and it was allowed to anonymous participants...."

Dat is maar gedeeltelijk waar niet? Iedereen "wist" waar het document stond (de URL ervan is meer dan eens gedeeld - ook hier op Loomio). De vergadering was aangekondigd. Waar je gelijk in hebt, is dat de "beslissing" (shit - men zou bang worden dat woord zelfs nog maar te gebruiken!) om direct in Google Docs te editen op het laatste moment genomen werd, en niet werd aangekondigd. Moet ik daarvoor opnieuw te kakken worden gezet?

(waarmee ik natuurlijk je laatste zin niet afbreek - dat communicatie te wensen over laat. Daar heb je 4000% gelijk in! Kijk maar naar deze thread.)

2) NV-A...

Heb je nu echt geen idee wat ik hiermee wilde zeggen? Er zit geen "demagogische" reden achter. De reden die erachter zit, is: bang zijn dat die GA uitmondt in een oeverloos gezwets zonder dat er noodzakelijke beslissingen genomen kunnen worden.

Is dat niet al in het verleden gebeurd?

3) Mijn gebruik van "Live Meetings" was "Meetings in persoon", "In Real Life", dus "Live meetings" (voor mij nog steeds de beste manier om tot een vorm van vergelijk te komen). Had niks te maken met live streaming. Was dat zó onduidelijk? Zoals gezegd Jan, ik heb maar twee handen aan mijn lijf én ik heb maar zo veel uren op een dag. Vind je nu echt dat ik niet genoeg mijn best doe om iedereen op dezelfde lijn te krijgen?! (ik neem aan dat je weet wat ik allemaal heb proberen te doen tot nu toe)

(1) Maybe I haven't understood your argumentation.
Aren't you objecting to to the idea of sending a document that informs our followers that a General Assembly will be held?

(2) Members vote. Followers attend. NVA can attend if they want to. I don't think they will.

(3) Could we go back to the topic? We are talking about the general assembly, not just the VZW.
I have a project to show and submit for validation to the GA. I've spent time and money on it.
Is it important? Well, it's our main communication tool and it's the solution for a problem that's been rotting for years. So, yes, it's important.

I'm of course talking about the website. And for the record, I've warmly welcomed pirates who have popped out of nowhere to bend that project in a direction they like.

(1) I am not in favour of the idea to broadcast the invitation to the widest possible group, but, if most pirates would agree with the idea to send the invitation to a very large group, then I would not object it. I would follow and stand behind the decision.

And the reason I am not in favour of the idea is because we need to get somewhere. It's difficult enough to come to decisions as it is - let alone if you open the GA for everybody out there.

Het is waar dat jij dat op FB hebt gepost, daarmee heb je de zaak aangekaart maar niet opgelost.... Er zijn ook nederlandstaligen die geen engels kunnen schrijven .... Laten we het dan nog niet hebben over anderstaligen....

Het is geen makkelijke materie en maakt nu ook deel uit van een apparte thread om in deze zaak gezamelijk naar oplossingen te zoeken. Dus neem dat niet te persoonlijk op.... Het zijn feiten en daar moeten we allen rekening mee houden....

Dan wat betreft google docs.... het gaat hem niet over te kakken zetten.... ik zit zo niet in mekaar Jo... Het is enkel een feitelijke vaststelling, waarmee je of dat positief verwerkt en er in de toekomst ook rekening mee kan houden.... (en onderzoekt of dat anonieme participatie geen problemen kan geven? wie zegt dat er geen VB mollen achter schuil gaan :-) )

of dat persoonlijk neemt.... hetgeen mn indruk is. Het is niet mn bedoeling te kwetsen maar ervoor te zorgen dat we steeds beter als groep de basis waarden kunnen toepassen...

Elke mens maakt fouten, dat is net mens zijn.... Ik doe niks anders ;-)

2) als dit je oprechte bekomernis is, hebben we er allen belang aan maximaal vooraf zoveel mogelijk op een open manier het debat te voeren. Loomio is 24u 7/7 voor 'iedereen' toegankelijk. En kan best bijdragen omwille van zijn struktuur. In die zin laten we dat persoonlijke zoveel mogelijk in een doosje laten en ons vooral concentreren op de inhoud.

3) Het gaat hem niet over je inzet, dewelke zeker prijzenswaardig is. Het gaat om nog meer openheid te maken en meer mensen te betrekken om kennis te nemen van het voorstel en alzo de pro en contra's duidelijk vooraf al aan bod te laten komen, zodat we op de GA zo min mogelijk nog discussie hebben en zo snel mogelijk tot stemming kunnen overgaan.

Blijkbaar heeft niemand jou gebriefd over Loomio, hetgeen al een even jammerlijke vaststelling is. Het is dan wel te laat voor de officiele agenda... Er is nog volop tijd voor de effectieve agenda klaar te maken.

Via dit platform heeft de Mechelse crew alle tools om van de komende GA een succes te maken... hetgeen tenslotte de bedoeling is of zou moeten zijn. Het is aan diegenen die het voorstel aanbrengen om de argumenten van tegenstaanders te weerleggen met gegronde tegen argumenten...

"Het is aan diegenen die het voorstel aanbrengen om de argumenten van tegenstaanders te weerleggen met gegronde tegen argumenten..."
Jan met die redenering kan ik niet echt akkoord gaan. dat is bijna vragen dat je moet bewijzen dat je onschuldig bent. Als je in een crew of squad een voorstel uitwerkt dat door een ruime meerderheid of zelf unaniem wordt gedragen. Dan mogen die mensen toch verlangen dat tegenstanders zelf ook wat verdiepen in het onderwerp, terechte vragen stellen en dan met gedegen tegen argumenten komen.

You are right, you don't have to provide some reasons of your disagreement :) Although, I would be very glad to hear them, simply because it is always good to get feedback. But just do as you want, of course ;)

@ Jonas Besbrugge ... Blijkbaar druk ik mij niet goed uit of heb jij het niet goed verstaan?

"Het is aan diegenen die het voorstel aanbrengen om de argumenten van tegenstaanders te weerleggen met gegronde tegen argumenten..."

In deze zin stel ik toch dat de tegenstaanders gedegen argumenten aanbrengen...

En kan ik vaststellen dat je tegen deze thread stemt zonder bekende reden?

Niet dat dit noodzakelijk is, maar toch handig als anderen weten om welke reden je tegen bent....

@vanecx Yes, I'll try to keep cool, otherwise I fear that we will never move on.
Thank you for your help! I think that as @josse said, we could add more information without having a contradictory convocation in the end.

@jovver Can't we just assume good faith ?

@hgo "@jovver Can't we just assume good faith ?"

Well yes. That would be lovely really!

I have the impression we are NOT having good faith in each other now. In fact I posted this message about it. I used "trust" though - and because of that one single difference in word usage (good faith vs trust), few people again seem to have understood it. Although both words are synonims: http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/trust

(This is that topic: https://www.loomio.org/d/OAxwU5j2/how-can-we-build-a-little-more-trust-in-each-other- )

So yes - all for it HgO. Let's show more good faith and try to comprehend each other instead of misinterpreting each other.

Piratepab.be is down since this morning. @koendv can you do something?

off topic

Not really because the link to the pad http://piratepad.be/p/Invitation-October2016 is in the description of this thread and I wanted to see it.

ok :thumbsup:

I am working on this pad as a back-up plan: https://mensuel.framapad.org/p/Invitation-October2016
For the moment, this is more a copy/paste from the last newsletter. So yeah, this is still a work in progress ;)

Iets minder oeverloos gezwets en meer on topic met degelijke argumenten zou wenselijker zijn.

@hgo en relisant ce matin le pad je me demandais si le plus simple serait d'envoyer un copier/coller du mail que j'ai reçu (collé dans le pad).

Par ailleurs, c'est vrais qu'il n'y a aucun lien vers un truc d'enregistrement comme la fois précédente sur Eventbrite.

By the way, does someone have this Eventbrite account credentials? If yes, can you at least provide a way to contact you here on Loomio or on the ITNow wiki page?

Ben là, l'invitation est presque finie. Je dois encore trouver comment formuler les points qui concernent l'ASBL, et ce sera bon je pense. La traduction devrait aller vite, je pense.

I don't have the credentials for this account, but I could manage the event. I'm not sure to know how Eventbrite exactly works, but I can copy that event to make a new one for this GA. If I do this, then I would need to know the maximum number of people expected, and the exact opening and closing times. But I think this requires a new thread.

Done here on a new thread. :kissing_heart:

I think @sarah40 maybe knows about eventbrite

I used Eventbrite for the symposium about 'economy', it worked fine and is very easy to use? but that was done from a personal account I believe.

looks like someone created a Pirates BE account for the previous GA: who owns this account?
http://www.eventbrite.com/o/pirates-be-9890872826

see here for topic on registration and EventBrite:
https://www.loomio.org/d/eIXMPLa7/how-do-we-register-to-the-ga-event-

I hope that the convocation letter makes it clear that it will be very technical indeed.

Could you ask for a translator of the Dutch part : https://mensuel.framapad.org/p/Invitation-October2016 ? There are less than 10 lines to be translated. Thank you very much ! :)

Ok, for me the convocation letter is finished. I'm not sure about the last bullet point of the agenda, and whether I put a link to the Google Docs for the VZW/ASBL...

I will start the French translation to gain some time, but don't be afraid to make your changes or comments :) I will adapt the translation accordingly.

Maybe put a link of both.... the bylaws today and the new propositions, so everyone can easy compare....

What do you mean exactly? Do you suggest to send this link : https://docs.google.com/document/d/12RIw9PV6zYkM2ucVe_zcXqSAgYrAvKyny5178HTsG84/edit ? Because I was thinking that it would be better to send a read-only version of the document, and to let people make their comments in Loomio for instance. I am afraid that Google Docs are not well designed for that.

Good idea, it is about the text...

Make a read only version of the existing statues and the proposal for the VZW/ASBL

Done :)

I'm good with the text now. If some kind pirate would like to write the Dutch translation (either from English or French), that would be great :)

I would also need confirmation about the Eventbrite and about the opening and closing times.

@nicolasboucher it was mentionned in the discussion here and it's clearly written in the convocation letter being written currently : "Bear in mind that only members who paid their membership fee can vote."

Yes I know but I think we should focus on being efficient. I cannot stand that we lose so much time on a GA because of organization. It's easier for everyone not to call for those who are not member anymore if we are not even able to tell when someone's membership reaches the deadline.

And what if someone pays the fee to be a member at the GA doorstep?

What if a friend come with me, listen to the speaches and in the moment of the vote, raises his hand without being a member. How do you control him? At the door? If yes ... where is the transparency and the sharing which are considered as core values?

Those members-only rules/members-only votes are some sort of mental illness fed by the roots of the control instead of the fluidity of our desired democratic approach.

It's a poison for the mind. A sickness. Give time instead of counting votes. Let it go, be open, listen, share, embrace even those who are «not like us».

Period

Hey guys!

Following this discussion, Hadrien G. asked me to send him the list of new (and old) members since the last GA, so he can send them the second convocation.to everybody regardless of the date of their last payment.

That's all fine by me, but many of the people on this list are considered 'closed' members and I don't know if it's appropriate to share their names just like that. I personally dislike the idea as long as there's no 'fixed' database where we can put information like this, and where it's only accessible for people who are entitled to it. But maybe there's a good way to determine if it's ok to send the info?

(For those who don't know, I am Hadrien ;) )

Small point: I would need the recent members only (starting from March 2016), as the old mailing list is already on mailchimp. We should probably clean this someday... But note that anyone can unsubscribe his/her mail address from the mailchimp mailing list (although I am aware that not everybody will think of doing it).

@tierce If I remember correctly they are not allowed to vote because they have to be member at the moment we send out the convocation. I have to say that I'm quite surprised when somebody speaks about transparency with the Pirates who don't even want to make the member list public... On an organisational way it could be funny to allow people to come with friends who are ready to vote at the GA and becoming member on that they. I'd then suggest all the ones who wish to pass something at the GA to come with friends and family that day only, pay 1€ and here we go... Or even a crowdfounding I put 100€ on the table, pay the membership fee of 100 persons asking them to be there and here we go... as their name will never appear nowhere... It could be funny.

Transparency and privacy are conflicting matters. Here, we ask people who decide to become member some personal data, but in the same time we ensure them that those data will remain internal (cf. the first line of this page).

That would be funny to prevent people from voting only because they forget to pay their membership fee. Even funnier when we know that we allowed member to renew their membership fee on the day of every GA in the past.

Anyway, maybe it would be better to start a new topic about this (i.e. how do we decide that a member has the right to vote on a GA), as I wouldn't want to "pollute" this one...

If I remember correctly they are not allowed to vote because they have to be member at the moment we send out the convocation. .... Where is this stated?

That's what I don't find but I'm sure that Marouane spoke to me about it. But it seems that that in the facts the Pirates were allowed to pay their fee on the GA day.

@hgo
1) tu peux peut-être ajouter que le débat doit se faire en préparation de l'AG, pas avant ? / you could add that debate is on loomio, not at the GA --> come prepared !

2) il manque la possibilité de donner sa procuration ! (1 par personne/max) / apparently we forgot about giving the possibility of proxy voting for those who cannot make it (1 proxy carrier per person max).

1) I will think a way to formulate this, but yes this is a good idea :) / Je dois voir comment formuler tout ça, mais oui c'est une bonne idée :)
2) Do we have some forms to fulfill for this? / Est-ce qu'on a un formulaire à remplir pour pouvoir donner sa procuration?

2) peut-être qu'en attendant d'en avoir un «à nous» on peut utiliser ceux-ci en barrant le titre à la main pour y mettre «Pirate GA Fall 2016». En plus il y a les version FR et NL :smiley:

That would be funny to reuse those government forms ^{^}
I was thinking about something simpler, though. You just need to send an email with "GA Proxy" as title. You must also put the person to whom you delegate your vote in CC, so that they are informed of this :)
Several questions now: Which mail address do we use for this ? Who will collect those mails? We would need to check whether both persons paid their membership fee, and whether this is their proper mail address.

Ce serait amusant de réutiliser ces formulaires du gouvernement (en tant que pirates) ^{^}
Je me disais qu'on pourrait faire plus simple, cependant. On pourrait juste envoyer un mail avec pour titre "Procuration GA". Il faudrait également mettre la personne à qui on délègue son vote en copie, afin qu'elle soit tenu au courant quand même :)
Questions: On envoie à quelle adresse? Qui va collecter tous ces mails? On devra aussi vérifier que les deux personnes sont bien en ordre de cotisation, et si c'est effectivement leur véritable adresse mail.

yes, via email, with the delegate in cc, is exactly what was happening before. At the GA registration desk, the delegate receives a second set of voting papers.

I added your suggestions in the convocation letter. I also changed the sentence about voting information, since you made some modifications. Is it good for you? :)

J'ai rajouté tes propositions dans la convocation, et j'ai aussi changé la phrase concernant les conditions de vote, comme tu y avais fait quelques changements. Est-ce que tout est bon pour toi ? :)

work for @patrickinstalle ? to verify ???

Quid du lien Eventebrite ?

@valeried Merci beaucoup! Je ne savais pas trop comment parler du "cc" :)

@tierce I am trying to contact Crew Mechelen before creating the event, because I would need some practical information about the venue. I think that @bebergeens was in charge of the venue, but I am not sure? Anyway, if you have any contact address, that would be very helpful :)

What do @toonvanboxstael , @jovver , @jancabooter , and/or some other Mechelen folks says about the current proposal and the Eventribe link for registering? @pascaldk, have you been in contact with someone (from Mechelen?) recently about it?

Tout ce que j'ai comme info sur les orgas en charge c'est que "c'est des gens de Mechelen", mais ça ne me dis toujours pas qui contacter.

En attendant je devrais récupérer un fichier à jour des membres, ce qui permettra déjà d'avoir une liste d'envoi à jour.

Dès que j'ai des noms précis à contacter je peux lancer le partage des comptes MailChimp et EventBrite pour laisser l'orga en charge faire la suite...

I did the translation in Dutch. I hope I did it right.
Please check.

Thanks for what was already done, but it seems that there are some missing parts. I've highlited them in orange on the pad.

Yes, there is still some sentences to be translated. Thank you for your help :)
(I changed the color to red, because Red is the new Orange it is more readable that way)

@hgo Je m'occupe d'ouvrir un Eventbrite ce soir, après ma petite ballade dans Bxl Sans Voitures ;)

Thanks again to the translators! There are still two sentences to be translated ;) It's almost finished :)

Well, I translated everything yesterday, when I look now, some parts are deleted and some sentences are changed and don't give good Dutch anymore. In Dutch sometimes we use english words, don't change this. Dutch has a complete other aproach of building a sentence, don't change a translation if you don't know the language.
I'll do this a second time, but don't expect I'll redo this a 3th time. :tired_face:

I didn't touch at your translation. I just made some formatting and removed the English (original) sentences. You can see that my changes have a dark green background.
But I'm sorry for this :(

I will send the convocation this evening, shortly after 6pm (when the proposal closes) :)

FYI Toon should update the member-list a last time today with the data of the last month (mid-august to now).

I asked him to tell me once it's done.
I see you back on Telegram :)

Then I think there is a problem about the saving on that platform. Sorry too.

There is issues with the server.

Personnaly I wouldn't use PiratePad for a moment.
Framapad or TitanPad are alive and both allows pad index (TitanPad is a better option imho)

Wie meent dat loomio niet goed werkt..... :-)

7 days to decide of there can be send a edited version of a letter?
Are you kidding?
In normal organisations this is a decision that takes 5 min.

In normal organizations, they don't have to ask for translators (this took us five days, I think). They also have all the practical informations (this took us several days as well, and we actually never got all the details from crew Mechelen...), and they don't need to ask for the membership list. Actually, they don't even bother for privacy. Finally, I figured out that we could take our time since it was a second convocation letter. No need to hurry anymore.

So, "7 days to decide" -> wrong, this decision was made quickly actually.

We are getting organised .... all on free will. Keeping the freedom to participate whenever you can or want.

Open for evereyone in the whole world and with a low carbon footprint.....

It is a good experiment regarding how direct-liquid democrazy could work.

And Yes it can go faster.

When everyone starts to understand the way of working. So we alle loose less time in Ego theater and just keep going for the real stuff....

Is this a joke?

Oui, on adore faire des blagues... Non, c'est une erreur, on va corriger ça.

Edit: Done.