Domain expired Social Coop down

If people think there are some options to choose between and want to put it to a poll, seems fine to me.

... only here, I don't see any other proposals. We didn't formally ask for proposals for action, but there has been a fair bit of discussion about it already and nothing else has emerged as far as I can see.

(Given I think the status quo is not really an option)

Maybe if you think a poll is a good idea still, perhaps make a call for more proposals so there would actually be something to choose between? If some emerge, then those could be put to a vote.

@Graham

The method of having multiple contacts for different purposes is a really effective approach. :D

Nice to see. :D

Also good to see the transparency. "With many eyes, all bugs are shallow." :D

@Jonathan Bean @Darren I'm not sure I think it's necessary to get community approval for this, but if you want to go ahead and do it, that's fine. It's not really a policy decision, and it's a clear extension of our use of P6 as our fiscal sponsor.

@Nick Sellen @Nathan Schneider @Darren , Right, it is not really a policy decision and a full community vote would be unnecessary and there has been enough deliberation with the tech group. I think most people would just be confused about why haven't already done this anyway. Also it is not unreverseable so anyone who thinks it is a bad idea or has a better solution can propose it anytime.

https://social.coop/terms - Bylaws for reference

I guess now we have a decision and we need someone to connect @Graham to Enric or whoever is managing his account? Who knows how to reach Enric?

Yeah guess I was unnecessarily labouring the process 🤭. I'll send Enric a link here and hopefully he'll do the transfer.

@Graham we are still trying to organise the domain transfer with Enric. Are you on Telegram?

Looks like it’s that time of year again, I imagine Enric has yet to transfer the domain name to us.

We are discussing this in the Matrix rooms -- unfortunately the domain has indeed expired again as we failed to make progress on https://git.coop/social.coop/tech/operations/-/issues/11. We will track making sure this can't happen again using that ticket.

In the meantime, I am struggling to determine if Faircoop/Enric is still holding the domain or it made it to Platform 6 at some point in time. I will try to keep this thread posted with news, but unfortunately given the domain is owned in a EU timezone in either case it seems it'll be at least a few more hours until we can make progress on this.

As reported on https://git.coop/social.coop/tech/operations/-/issues/11:

We were able to pay for the domain renewal with a different Gandi account -- this is a Gandi feature that Mayel found.

Now, let's try to use this experience to get the domain transfer done, or at least privilege delegation within Gandi to accounts owned by the TWG.

MANY THANKS to everyone who resolved this so promptly! And yes, if there's anything that regular members can do to support this, just ask!

Thanks to those who solved this. I don't know why this has plagued us for so long. @Graham @Leo Sammallahti can you report on the situation from the P6 side?

I see the “social.coop” domain name as our most important asset and the one most at risk. How can we ensure that we finally make this move and transfer the domain name — with P6 or another legally recognized cooperative as the listed Registrant. @Graham, @Nathan Schneider, how can I help more directly here? (12 years of experience on cira.ca board — Registry platform for .CA, .IE, .NZ, others…)

It is my view currently that given the imminent transition whereby innovation.coop will be managing the fiscal hosting service for social.coop and others, it makes sense for innovation.coop to be the legal entity to hold the registration for the social.coop domain. Out of interest my innovation.coop colleague Shaun Fensom was a key part of the team that enabled the .coop TLD to come into being). Let's add it to the to-do list and ensure that the registration is shifted to alleviate Enric from the annual annoyance of having to sort out renewal.

I just refreshed the Telegram chat with @Graham and Enric. Can we prioritize this process? I really don't want this issue to happen again. @Andrew Escobar (Andres) is absolutely right about what a critical lapse this is.

I’ve been added to the Telegram chat. Let’s wait for a resolution to social‍.coop’s fiscal host (presumably to innovation‍.coop) and then transfer the domain and update the registrant details accordingly.

Not to throw a wrench in the gears, but it seems like this should be written up as a proposal for coop members to vote on? Especially since it is an important asset?

@Ed Summers Is this an easily reversible decision? Could we do it and then put it to a vote after?

@Ed Summers As I have mentioned elsewhere, when the time comes, I will create (or support the writeup of) a well documented consensus proposal, with all the relevant information within the proposal itself — so that members (new or experienced) can make an informed decision.

(My thoughts on next steps are below.)

Ahoy! Thank you so much for dealing with this, all. It's so nice to see this being discussed when it's not a critical/urgent issue for a change! :D

For posterity:

1. Which Telegram room is this? Could members of the TWG/CWG be in it?

2. Who will be the official contacts for domain ownership topics going forward, if we know this?

Ed's suggestion sounds good to me and could be run in parallel with making progress on the transfer if it is already taking place; we could make the vote be about the end state we want to achieve longer term (be it having the domain name be with a new trusted party chosen by the FWG for example, or social.coop incorporating in some way so it can hold its own domain names eventually).

@Flancian @Ed Summers

1. I can add a member of TWG/CWG. Please let me know. I have not pushed this forward within the Telegram group as I believe we should either (1.) wait for a proper transition or a co-operative arrangement between P6 and Innovation‍.coop; or (2.) act with some urgency and create a proposal specific to the ownership of the social‍.coop domain name.

2. The Registrant would be “Innovation Cooperative Limited”.

Cross posting from the broader thread (Open Collective Host & Platform 6) but here are what I believe should be our next steps:

1. A member of P6 (perhaps @Andrew Escobar (Andres) or @Graham) will provide social‍.coop members with an update on the transition or co-operative arrangement between P6 and Innovation‍.coop — but we are waiting on those details (proposal: sense check).

2. Innovation‍.coop and P6 will take their necessary steps.

3. Innovation‍.coop may already be our fiscal host or P6 may continue to be our fiscal — it all depends on the transition or co-operative arrangement — but social‍.coop members can then chose to validate this continued relationship (proposal: consensus). The proposal can specifically mention Innovation‍.coop as the new Registrant of our our social‍.coop domain and any additional domains.

4. We can then update the domain records for “Innovation Cooperative Limited” to become the Registrant of our social‍.coop domain.

@Graham, @Flancian, @Nathan Schneider: I now think that we should push this forward with option (2.) above: act with some urgency and create a proposal specific to the ownership of the “social‍.coop” domain name.

The Registrant of the “social‍.coop” domain would be changed to “Innovation Cooperative Limited”.

(I would suggest Admin be listed as Innovation and Technical be listed as a generic or group address for the TWG; no individual should assume the legal liability of being listed as Admin.)

Are there other details that should be included in the proposal? The Registrar used (continue to use Gandi.net or transfer to Domains.coop or Hover.com for example)? Specific initial access details or general delegation to TWG?

@Andrew Escobar (Andres) thanks for continuing work on this. I am not even sure we need a proposal, getting control over the domain is something that should have been done all along. But we should do a proposal to ensure everyone knows about the fiscal host shift.

Meanwhile, can I help you get in touch with Enric? Or is @Graham on it? Let's proceed with getting the domain. I would advocate moving to domains.coop to support the co-op movement.

@Nathan Schneider I am in a shared telegram chat with you, Enric, and Graham. (We can also add @Flancian or another TWG member.)

I’m not sure we’re ready for a consensus proposal for fiscal host transition (legal details and next steps not finalized) which is why I suggest a proposal specific to the domain Registrant only.

Hmm. This seems a bit strange. Could we just transfer the domain to P6 for now, and then have it move over to Innovation when that transition happens? It just seems strange to once again move the domain to a third party.

A bit of info here: while the technical detail of the relationship between P6 and innovation.coop is still being worked through, in practice on a day to day basis the people with their hands on the tiller for the two organisations are the same for both orgs. In terms of the registration of the domain name, this in my view is the hardest bit to make happen because we remain reliant on Enric's participation and support, and right now it doesn't seem like he is engaging with the Telegram thread, where I have posted details of how to change the registrant record for the domain , and have not heard anything back that I'm aware of. Do we have any other line of communication with him?

@Darren, any insight on how we can contact Enric Duran beyond just Telegram?

@Andrew Escobar (Andres) One thought is I could reach out to Domains.coop and try to get control of the domain that way.

I just tried to open a ticket. Let's see if they can help.

@Nathan Schneider While domains.coop is a subsidiary and the team is the same, we should contact identity.coop which is the .COOP Registry. We can hopefully proceed with an informal process that leads to the domain name being transferred. We ideally avoid a formal dispute resolution process ($1500 to WIPO as selected by identity.coop; a significant effort on my part).

@Andrew Escobar (Andres) hey there. Not sure. They are semi-public online so likely would be able to track down other ways to contact them.

Just checked and theres no contact emails listed with the domain registration.

@Andrew Escobar (Andres) I know people at domains.coop - there is a Chinese wall between them and the registry operation, and I agree that this is an avenue to pursue. There's a compelling case.

@Graham Sounds good. Please do reach out to them. I just wrote to Gandi with the following:

Dear Gandi,

I am representing Social.coop, a project of the UK-based cooperative Platform6. Our domain name was registered with you by an early participant in our group, Enric Duran, but we have been unable to get in touch with him and are concerned about losing access to the domain. Can you assist us in regaining access to the domain administration?

Thank you, Nathan

@Nathan Schneider That’s a good start. I don’t think the TWG submitted expense receipts for these, but might be worth attaching those to the ticket with Gandi, and letting them know we’ve paid to renew the domain two years in a row!

I’ve also reached out to the .COOP Registry about this.

I reached out directly to the .COOP Registry (DotCooperation LLC, identity.coop), who reached out to Gandi, who were not at all helpful:

[…] if they [social.coop] really cannot prove a link with the current owner, it doesn’t matter if the organisation [fair.coop] is defunct or not. We [Ghandi] will not be able to help them [social.coop] get access to a domain name over which they don’t have any rights.

@Nathan Schneider Any updates from your end with Gandi? @Graham Should we try and reach Enric through other channels?

I will continue to work with the .COOP Registry on a resolution. We can hopefully resolve this through an informal process that leads to the domain name being transferred (level 3 under the .coop dispute policy) but that may require formal dispute resolution process (requires $1500 to WIPO as selected by identity.coop; a significant effort on my part; and sufficient records and documentation from the early days of social.coop about the registration of our domain name).

This is a systemic issue, we had the same in CDS - solution: have a non dominant person being „The Queen“ in a long term crucial owner role without acting in a political way out of the power position. To my knowledge there is no workaround.

Andrew Escobar (Andres) · Finance Working Group (via Loomio) schrieb am Mo. 18. Dez. 2023 um 21:21:



AEF

Andrew Escobar (Andres) · Finance Working Group hat kommentiert in: Domain expired Social Coop down ( https://www.loomio.com/d/Jf5Wi4Ph/comment/3033064?utm_campaign=new_comment&utm_medium=email )

I reached out directly to the .COOP Registry (DotCooperation LLC, identity.coop) ( http://www.identity.coop/ ), who reached out to Gandi, who were not at all helpful:

[…] if they [social.coop ( http://social.coop )] really cannot prove a link with the current owner, it doesn’t matter if the organisation [fair.coop ( http://fair.coop )] is defunct or not. We [Ghandi] will not be able to help them [social.coop ( http://social.coop )] get access to a domain name over which they don’t have any rights.

@Nathan Schneider Any updates from your end with Gandi? @Graham Should we try and reach Enric through other channels?

I will continue to work with the .COOP Registry on a resolution. We can hopefully resolve this through an informal process that leads to the domain name being transferred (level 3 under the .coop dispute policy ( https://identity.coop/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/coop-Dispute-Policy-Jan-2020.pdf )) but that may require formal dispute resolution process (requires $1500 to WIPO ( https://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/guide/ ) as selected by identity.coop ( https://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/guide/ ); a significant effort on my part; and sufficient records and documentation from the early days of social.coop ( http://social.coop ) about the registration of our domain name).

Links

( https://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/guide/ )
WIPO Guide to the Uniform Domain Name Dispute Resolution Policy (UDRP) ( https://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/guide/ )
WIPO Arbitration and Mediation Center, El Centro de Arbitraje y de Mediación de la OMPI, Le Centre d'arbitrage et de médiation de l'OMPI

—

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And I am in contact with the people I know within the .coop registry operation, and they have suggested a possible approach. I need to follow that up, which will now be in the New Year. If I get anywhere I'll feed back here of course.

@Graham We may have overlapped our efforts with .COOP in December, but that is fine… Platform 6 or Innovation would ultimately be the named Registrant and your involvement is crucial and appreciated.

Can we perhaps merge our email threads to .COOP? My email while navigating this issue:

andrewe [symbol] social [punctuation] coop

Many years ago, Enric forked our software, and we gave him and FairCoop a lot of time and software support. I can try reaching out, although I don't necessarily expect it to work. What specifically should I ask him to do, the easier and more concrete the better?

I have not been able to get in touch with Enric. The CIC, the co-op that the domain is registered under, appears to no longer have a website. I will try reaching out to others I know from those days.

I just wrote to an old contact of mine there.

An important update to this thread that I should have added months ago… 🎉

After significant time spent working through .COOP registry (DotCooperation) and their informal dispute resolution process, we now have direct control of our social.coop domain name as of March 28, 2024: https://client.rdap.org/?type=domain&object=social.coop

@andrewe Thank you for this incredible work! It's something that eluded me for years, and your dedication solved it.