I think the crews have a role to play here.
Loomio cannot be the only source of decision but if every proposal has passed the Loomio filter and has been analyzed and commented by each crew before going to the GA, we can save a lot of time.

A general assembly is a place to decide. A debate 5 minutes before making a decision is far too late.

That is exactly my opinion as well. thx.

It's not expire as such, it's more a way to see "is this rule still valid?". But I'm up to alternatives ;-)

Well, It's how it happened (and worked) in the past.
From experience, I know people don't read meeting reports, preparatory documents, prepare talks, speeches,... &c. It's already a big deal that we can get so many people to vote for them.
I understand your principle about it, but it's just not how people work/operate (procrastination, no sense of urgency, bad planners,... yes we are, the dedicated gtd people are the exception in the population)

I see a major risk that, if you want to vote a whole package at once, you will get a lot of "no's", all based on different objections. so no VZW/ASBL will be accepted.
if, however, you divide it in chunks, you will have the "no's" spread over individual points. And the Yes votes are more likely to win... resulting in an approved ASBL/VZW.

But feel free to try another method.

Christofphe je bent op de hoogte dat je nu zaterdag in de expession welkom bent om hopelijk de laatste vergadering voor de opstart van de vzw mee te maken. daar kan je dan zelf vaste stellen hoe ver het werk gevorderd is en of het opportune is om op verschillende onderdelen te stemmen. De vzw is een geheel en als je over een onderdeel niet akkoord bent zal die vzw niet werken. Vandaar dat dus weinig zin heeft om om per onderdeel te stemmen dat hebben we in de werkgroepen gedaan. die vzw constructie is consensus van zeker 20 piraten. En de vraag op de GA is of we met deze vzw willen werken/ werkbaar is voor de piraten. Niet dat we willen meedingen voor de mooiste geschreven statuten in een schoonheidswedstrijd.

Dank voor de uitnodiging (helaas heb ik meestal andere plannen tijdens weekends, en ik neem aan veel piraten ook).

Het punt is dus niet dat ik mijn zeg wil doen (heb de tekst gelezen, ziet er goed uit), maar om toe te laten dat zoveel mogelijk piraten, ook diegene die zich minder moeite getroosten zich te informeren (omwille van welke terechte of onterechte reden dan ook, we blijven vrijwilligers) hun zeg kunnen doen.

In een democratie is het belangrijk om geïnformeerde burgers te hebben, zodat ze hun stem zo goed mogelijk kunnen laten gelden. Daar staan we als piraat voor.

Het is inderdaad niet de bedoeling om alle werk opnieuw ter discussie te stellen op de GA, maar het motiveren (in 1 of 2 volzinnen) waarom je ergens voor of tegen stemt, kan de minder geïnformeerde Piraat van gedacht doen veranderen (omdat er meer geïnformeerde piraten in die 1 of 2 zinnen de kern van hun gedachten kunnen formuleren).

Absoluut géén ruimte laten voor spreken in de GA en enkel op een stemknopje duwen is niet alleen saai, maar verre van het ideaal van de piraten.

Dus: als je er in kan slagen méér piraten te nudgen om hun werk op voorhand te doen, goed (en laat me weten hoe je dit doet, want zo'n skill is goud waard in alle vrijwilligers-organisaties en daarbuiten ook). Maar - psycholoog zijnde (van opleiding. Ja, dat is mogelijk een gezagsargument, mensen zijn daar vatbaar voor)- ik denk dat het beter is om rekening te houden met hoe mensen zich gedragen dan te kiezen voor een procedure die verwachtingen legt (over hoe mensen zich behoren te gedragen).

Soit... Misschien dat we eens liquid democracy op de GA moeten testen ergens de komende jaren.

De komende jaren? de volgende GA bedoel je toch....

Goed: dan mogen (leden) mensen hun stem per onderwerp delegeren aan de aanwezigen op de GA, en dan per topic indien nodig.
Dan laat je enkel die mensen aan het woord die X aantal stemmen voor hun standpunt hebben gehaald bijvoorbeeld.

Daarnaast zijn er ook manieren van consensus voting mogelijk (waar er keuze is tussen n standpunten, waar iedereen zijn pro -neutraal -tegen vote aan elk van de standpunten geeft, de keuze met de beste totaalscore wordt dan gekozen).

Liquid democracy is vooral nuttig vanaf je véél stemmers hebt (laat ons zeggen 100+).

We kunnen aan elke stemberechtigde piraat een stembiljet geven per item. Als hij dat wil delegeren, dan is dat zijn keuze. Dat is eenvoudige vorm ...

Elke stem kan voorzien worden van een GUID om vervalsingen tegen te gaan. Bij voorkeur in een 2D barcode om makkelijk in te lezen.

oh dans le passé on ne faisait pas si compliqué : la personne délègue sa voix et se débrouille avec celle à qui elle l'a donnée pour qu'elle vote suivant ses directives.

@ Jov Ver (?) it looks like a empty train with open doors, with a conductor screaming.... you are to late to jump on.... whaw ain't that great way of being democratic.... :-(

I must say I am a bit surprised with your comment: "a great way to be democratic".

Do I understand you well that you find my proposed decisions about efforts which have been carried out in the open, which we solicited input for for weeks or even months, which people have invested their time in and which have a deadline set, an undemocratic way of proceeding?

With input requested at all times - open for each and all, I just think we must prevent high-jacking the assembly, so that all that hard work can be approved. Again: I am doing all of this, not for me, not because of a blind belief in "pirates", I am doing this because the pirate party has a pivotal role to play to improve the local and national communities we live in! I propose that approach so that the pirate party can move forward for crying out loud. We can continue arguing about "democratic process" for aeons and result in never, ever being able to improve it and thus completely and entirely missing the pirate party's intended goal. Would that be a good approach to you?

I have the same view as Vincent on this

"I think the crews have a role to play here.
Loomio cannot be the only source of decision but if every proposal has passed the Loomio filter and has been analyzed and commented by each crew before going to the GA, we can save a lot of time.

A general assembly is a place to decide. A debate 5 minutes before making a decision is far too late."

I do understand that many pirates are not fully aware of this workflow.... So as Sarah Van Liefferinghe mentioned today: we need more people on Loomio and a good intro about do and don't s

This workflow has been used in the preparation of the previous GA with positive results.

It is clear that still today not al pirates are informed about the work that has been done during this summertime. Closing the doors so they can not interact is not very friendly way and could result in reverse reactions.... It is easy to divide, it is great to unite ....

With Loomio all proposals can be viewed, commented and voted in advance... So in this way we can grow to consensus toward decisions on the GA....

Let's work on it ...

If this is a standalone proposal, I recommend you add it as a new topic in the brainstorming zone:
https://www.loomio.org/g/Zur7Xe6o/pirate-party-belgium-permanent-assembly-lvl1-brainstorming-zone

Dispersion of information is our worst enemy.

It is a proposal for the agenda of the GA.
I suppose this is the topic to do proposals for the GA?
Or should we disperse all the proposals for the GA in apart topics?

So, what you suggest is that everyone adds proposal for the statutes in this thread and that someone cleans the mess by extracting the relevant information and makes a document with it? Will you do it?
Please show some respect for people who will try to organize this assembly. A consistent input method is important.

And for the record, Jov's post explicitely states:
"Further topics for the GA can be sent to info@pirateparty.be before October 1st."
Besides, we are talking about topics to add to the agenda here, not formal proposals to amend the statutes.

I suggest that, before sending proposals, you discuss them somewhere, for example in a thread on Loomio.

Okay, sorry, it was not clear to me, i'll delete mine above.
So the best way to introduce a new proposal is starting a threat at loomio and send it after acceptation from enough members to info@pirateparty.be.
A little circuitous but if that's the protocol we'll do it that way.

I will approve in respect of the effort of those who gives time on that vzw/asbl project, but I do not like it.

Read the following lines like my thoughts, not my words. :yin_yang:

We need a decision on moving piratelab.be towards pirateparty.be / partipirate.be / piratenpartij.be. This is a decision only, as the complete project has been developed in a transparent way since July 2nd.

This means that we just make the current Drupal website disapears.

I considered that as a memory of all the previous goods and less goods things we, as Pirates, have done in the past.

I do have a copy of it, so do what ever you want.

By the way pirates started to discuss, think and try to work together on that new website since the Pirate Lab of November 2015. Also completely in transparency because it is on our good old public Wiki.

One final lab is scheduled for September 24th, in Mechelen's Expression bar.

I was considering the fact that we are just in the begining of our working together experience. But because of that «electoral pressure» and that «vzw thing» there is now some kind of «emergency feelings».

Later comments will not be taken into account towards development of the site. Thanks to the Website Squad for all the hard work already.

A website is a «living thing» so I hope that we will still listening to comments in the future. And by the way, there is no such thing as a website squad. There was people working together, free to come and go with almost no other rule but keep a track on a public pirate channel again; our good old Wiki and his ugly but usefull and messy Pads.

We need a decision on allowing a national vzw / asbl / non-profit to be installed. Preparation work has been going on since beginning of August. Events were always posted in BPU.

I was not aware of it because «my mistake» is not being a Facebook user. As a human, I've no reasons to use that closed and very intrusive web service. But «us who claim to defend transparency» ... we start discussions on a CLOSED GROUP of an UNRESPECTFULL SERVICE PLATFORM. ... In the end ... I do not consider it as «my mistake».

We need a decision on allowing said vzw / asbl / non-profit to govern funds and membership database as a tool for pirates to access. The list will clearly not be public, but will serve as a basis for further organisation towards upcoming elections.

Simply, I do not like that idea within my heart and my bones because of those words : govern, funds, membership database, not public, elections.

:heart:

Thierry Fenasse aka tierce aka Alberto Pedro aka raoulzecat aka whatevercomestomymind.

This means that we just make the current Drupal website disapears.
I considered that as a memory of all the previous goods and less goods things we, as Pirates, have done in the past.

That actually is a good point. No, we shouldn't loose it. What options do we have - http://old.pirateparty.be / archive.pp.be...

One final lab is scheduled for September 24th, in Mechelen's Expression bar.

Final lab before GA I meant - I thought that was clear from context. Of course a site never is finished and can always be improved upon...

I was not aware of it because «my mistake» is not being a Facebook user. As a human, I've no reasons to use that closed and very intrusive web service. But «us who claim to defend transparency» ... we start discussions on a CLOSED GROUP of an UNRESPECTFULL SERVICE PLATFORM. ... In the end ... I do not consider it as «my mistake».

You are not deliberately omitting the fact that, in Gembloux, I rehearsed what was going in Mechelen around the topic, right? You were in Gembloux - I know, because I asked your name three times! :D

Simply, I do not like that idea within my heart and my bones because of those words : govern, funds, membership database, not public, elections.

I don't either actually, but they're necessary evils if we want to make a difference. As long as we all do this with the best of intents, we should be fine. Any improvement, any difference we can bring, shall be a welcome one. Don't you agree? If that needs setting up some un-piratey things, then I am in favour. Then we should be in favour. Pirates should. IMHO.

Also - can somebody translate the proposed agenda in French. We need to send out the invitation tomorrow latest...

I agree with Thierry, I didn't hear about every points in the agenda simply because I am not in Facebook and I was not in Gembloux either. You must know that the summer time is usually a very busy period for most of us. I couldn't attend the July PirateLab because I was abroad, and during the August PirateLab I was quite focused on my studies.

Regarding the website, I would add that we must still discuss if we choose different DNS for each language (e.g. pirateparty.be, partipirate.be, ... or even nl.pirateparty.be, ...), or if we put them in different folders (e.g. pirateparty.be/fr/, pirateparty.be/nl/, etc.). This is very technical, but I think there will be an impact on the way cookies are stored.
In short, if we could re-phrase this point, that would be better I think.

Also, that would be great if we could respect each other when debating. I can understand that you are irritated by people who seem to do nothing and then reappear from nowhere to give their opinion. When I agree that one should respect deadlines, you must understand that such claims might offend people.

Finally, I can translate the propositions and invitations in French, but I'm currently abroad (I will come back on Saturday). I don't this is a good idea to focus on deadlines only, because we would definitively loose in quality. I prefer to receive some great invitations, but late, than the opposite. Last GA, I sent the invitations one week late, but nobody seemed to complain...

Anyway, I have accesses to the newsletter thing, so I can definitively help for that part.

I agree with an agenda like that. I just wished the deadline for proposals sent by email was later, around 10th October. Because the time between this deadline and the GA is not useful for Pirates as the proposals are supposed to be already discussed/debated/decided before they have been sent.

BUT I don't agree that this text (in the context of this thread) is the one to be sent. There are things in it that are wrong (like "All pirates have been kept up to date of proceedings on BPU"), or information is not complete, therefore Pirates who will receive this might just not be able to make up their minds as they won't know what these proposals are about...
So I made a new thread, please join for the next step

there are about 50 active, i.e. "paying" pirates. It's a number which I believe contains most of the active ones, which have been informed about proceedings over the last few months.

And sorry, if we have pirates whom we never see or hear from, except for on GA's to block proceedings, then I do think they're "worth less". I do so because I think we all want to move forward. If they also want to, then they should not be blocking in the first place and if they have reasons and want to express them, they have been given the time.

Look, a GA is not to discuss things, it is to formalise things. It is difficult enough to discuss between 10-12, and time-intensive enough to then spread that vision around to all crews - let alone to repeat these discussions when there's 50 around. I'd keep the wording as is already written. There's not a single vote against it - yet?

Reply to @toonvanboxstael , but just fixing Google Translate:

Nous avons besoin d'une décision pour bouger piratelab.be vers pirateparty.be / partipirate.be / piratenpartij.be. Cela devrait suffir de prendre simplement la décision, comme le projet a été développé de manière transparente depuis le 2 juillet. Beaucoup d'efforts ont été faits par des pirates divers. Tous les pirates ont été tenus à jour de la procédure sur BPU (Belgian Pirates United) et ont été informés sur les Piratelabs qui ont eu lieu à ce sujet. Un piratelab final est prévu pour le 24 septembre, dans le bar Expression à Malines. C'est le moment pour faire tous les commentaires ou questions. Commentaire après ne seront plus pris en compte en faveur de progresser le développement du site. Merci au Website Squad pour tout le travail déjà.

Nous avons besoin d'une décision sur l'autorisation d'installer un asbl. Le travail de préparation est en cours depuis le début d'août. Les événements ont été toujours affichés dans BPU. Texte actuel est sur Google Docs. Ce texte sera finalisé samedi 10 septembre. Comme mentionné dans les articles de Google Docs de fondation de l' asbl , il est un organe indépendant doté d'une fonction juridique et d'entretien. Commentaires sur le texte sont autorisés jusqu'au 1er octobre (comme le samedi 10/09 est trop proche pour réagir).

3.Nous avons besoin d'une décision sur l'autorisation asbl pour régir les fonds et aussi la base de données d'adhésion, qui forme un outil pour les pirates à avoir accès à certains informations sur les membres. La liste sera clairement pas publique, mais servira de base pour poursuivre l'organisation en vue des élections à venir.

D'autres sujets de l'AG peuvent être envoyés à info@pirateparty.be avant le premier octobre.

Much has happened in preparatory working groups with a limited number of pirates. That's fine. But if direct democracy is our objective, it is also necessary to give everyone the opportunity to participate in decision making.

Loomio has been used by the previous GA to make the agenda .
The initiators of the Mechelen crew have not taken this in account .... why?

haste and urgency is rarely working out in a good way.
Now we find ourselves in lack of time... if we consider the bylaws of the pirates today.

Buth the bylaws are already in default ...

So why worry ... let's move on .... and bring the result of the meeting about the vzw/asbl to Loomio after the meeting Saturday .... So we can go on and clear out more before the final voting on the GA. ???

@Jan Van Opstal That is why it says you can add proposals until the 1st of October

Proposals on Loomio are continuously.... If they can make it towards the upcomming GA.... that we all can decide here on Loomio. And if nobody objects even on the GA itself... ???

because the agenda has not been established in a democratic way

Immensely funny. The agenda has been discussed at the start of every single meeting, starting with "Recess of Recession" in Mechelen. You were present there. Hell - I even paid for your train ticket because I want to include as many persons as are willing to work on it.

if direct democracy is our objective, it is also necessary to give everyone the opportunity to participate in decision making.

Do you know any better way of participation than to talk in person?

Starting at Summer Event, I went to Recess of Recession, Extracting Entropy, PirateLab, ASBL last Sunday and again this Saturday. PirateLab again Sept 24th. I went to Antwerp crew meetings, to these in Mechelen and drinks in Antwerp, Mechelen and the new Aalst crew and I'll attend them again the coming weeks. Why do I do that? To make sure nobody gets left out and everybody active gets the same information. It is a bit difficult for me to address the unknown idle ones huh? I have not went to Leuven, Gent and Brugge, because I know these crews are aligned already. Same for Brain l'Alleud, Waremme and Liège.

Furthermore - almost all meetings have been formalised somehow. Either by tape, on piratepads, on facebook, on wikis. It's NOT complete coverage - I admit. You know that I have a full-time job, a family and a book to write as well?

If idle pirates do not react - sorry, no go. We can stall this project (the "Pirate Party" project) forever indeed by endlessly referring to "a democratic process" and "pirate values". If you want to make a difference, then you also need to know when to take shortcuts - which, given the proof above, is a very, very strong word I'm using as in fact, there are NO shortcuts. Loomio is a shortcut for failure to meet in person!

Thanks for the support Jan! Really. If there is anything I can do for you - just ask huh?

• slightly annoyed *

Don't take things personally Jos Ver. I can understand you are annoyed, I happens to me also...
Is this not the same frustration we all have if we look the way our political decisions making is happening today...

There is nothing wrong the way the meetings in Mechelen have been hold. They are of great importance and my remarks should not be interpreted as a critic on this.

But we should also be conscious that many Pirates where not informed (maybe because they where on holiday - or are not following FB and Loomio was not activated, or could not attend because whatever reason ...) So they have their very important value but they never can replace the GA ?

So we are still in a experimental phase... and we are looking for better instruments to make it possible for all pirates to be involved in the decision making. Testing of better platforms is on the way and step by step we will get there.... together :-)

I'm sorry, but there was some misunderstanding here. First, I voted for saying that the agenda seems ok to me on the content, but the form still needs some work.
However, I didn't vote for sending this as an invitation/convocation mail... I seriously think that this need to be reformulated. This is why I totally agree with Renaud here. Besides, as I said, I would be glad to help once I'm back in Belgium (that is, in less than two days...).

@jovver I think that the problem is that you are taking this too personally... I think that in the end, there is chance for you to get very frustrated..
I'm glad to hear that you are attending so many crew and pirate gatherings. However, you must understand that all pirates don't work in that way. A pirate can be very active and yet attend very few meetings.
You are saying that you attended every meetings since August, which is great. But this sounds as an argument from authority to me... I attended almost every PirateLab except the last two ones due to personal reasons, and so what? Do I consider myself as an active pirate? I'm just trying to help as much as I can, without getting involved too personally.

Is this not the same frustration we all have if we look the way our political decisions making is happening today...

It might very well be indeed. Isn't that why we need to be able to provide an alternative?

We will not be able to do that if even in this very small group we are here on Loomio, we are unable to get to a common understanding of things. If we are not able to dissolve our strong convictions somewhere in order to meet in the middle. If we are unable to put some trust into each other, in what we are doing and in what is being prepared by others.

I stick to my point: if pirates are not able to inform themselves over months, because they are 1) not active on Facebook, 2) not active on Loomio, 3) not looking at the wiki pages, 4) not reading through piratepads and 4) not even joining the crews from time to time, then I think nobody in their right minds can say they are active, involved and deserving of the same amount of "voice", as these who do one or more of these things.

Come on - give me one example of an (successful) organisation which is able to operate by allowing outsiders (because that is what they are given the above) to influence its decision making.

As said: the way the democratic process is outside the pirate party, is a mess. Any small improvement to it, already is a step forward. While we look for alternatives, we should not hi-jack the necessary steps the party needs to take in order to get there. The ideal world does not exist, we can only try to improve the far from ideal world we live in. The ideal world will never exist inside the PPBE either; we can only try to go as far as we can.

But, to me at least, that does not and can not mean that we need to stall everything before we reach somewhere close to that ideal. In fact, it sounds like a contradictio interminis now that I write it down.

Until now I don't see any agenda.

I don't see any discussion place about each proposition.

I don't understand: what does it mean to vote "I agree" here??? Can someone clarify please?

The way I understand it, it's the basis of the agenda, other points being added by sending an email to info@pirateparty.be

This can not be the whole agenda....

More issues are on the list....

"Further topics for the GA can be sent to info@pirateparty.be before October 1st."
It's in the proposal we've agreed on.

Just a comment to mention that I tried to send an email to info@pirateparty.be and I got an error ... This should be fixed otherwise we cannot add points to the agenda.

Anyway, I added a section on the GA wiki for pending approval requests but I guess if I want to get in touch with the people in charge of the agenda, I still need to reach them by an official mail.

Here is the error I got :

The original message was received at Tue, 13 Sep 2016 16:29:44 +0200
from mail@localhost

----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
community@pirateparty.be
(reason: 550 5.0.0 community@pirateparty.be... User unknown)
(expanded from: community@pirateparty.be)

----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to [127.0.0.1]:

DATA
<<< 550 5.0.0 community@pirateparty.be... User unknown
550 5.1.1 community@pirateparty.be... User unknown
<<< 503 5.0.0 Need RCPT (recipient)

Final-Recipient: RFC822; community@pirateparty.be
Action: failed
Status: 5.0.0
Remote-MTA: DNS; [127.0.0.1]
Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 550 5.0.0 community@pirateparty.be... User unknown
Last-Attempt-Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 16:29:44 +0200

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Damiens Robert damiens.robert@gmail.com
To: info@pirateparty.be
Cc:
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 16:29:42 +0200
Subject: Add a subject to the GA hold in Mechelen.
Hi,

I would like to add a point in the agenda of the Mechelen GA. The Louvain-la-Neuve pirates intend to participate to a citizen list for the town elections instead of presenting a list Pirate branded.

We would like to communicate this fact to the other pirates at the GA and we would also like to start a discussion that would be held on loomio in order to see if other crews are interested by this approach in order to make a bigger impact with a broader set of individuals interested in this idea.

Kind regards,

Damiens ROBERT.

PS: I will add a section on the GA wiki page for subject that are pending approval to stand on the agenda.

This is strange, because I well received your mail...

Edit: The error has nothing to do with info@ppbe but with community@ppbe. Maybe this is an alias of info@ppbe. I think that @pascaldk or @tierce could solve this issue ?

Edit²: I notified our IT crowd on telegram :)

Fixed. The address community@pirateparty.be doesn't exist anymore yet it was a member of the info distribution group.
Message received.

It's funny I said at the beginning don't do it on loomio because the technical barrier and now some of the Pirates were out of the process because they are not on loomio and we will loose a lot of time on the GA.
So the best thing for me is to remember that a GA is a place to vote no discussion. If you are against the vsw no problem vote against it but please do not ask for a useless deliberation or a relecture of the text.
Second, if the program is prepared here no worries because it's clearly written in the mail that if a Pirate want to have another topic in it it's easy to write to info@pirateparty.be
Three, for the moment, the GA would be something like "do you agree with the new website?" yes or no "do you agree with the start of a bsw?" yes or no.
Let's do everything to be sure that the GA will not be a mess or a possibility to any flibuster to ruin all the work done by the website and the bsw squad.