Who is working now on Open Apps Ecosystem?

Great !

Hi Marc,

If you agree with this way of doing, we need developers to create plugins (addons) on open apps to make the communicate with the API (Communecter's API for a start). This is a huge work, and I need to be in touch with theses people to build an API capable to communicate well with the plugins of the apps.

So if I understand, this is what you want to build a team for? I will volunteer to work on apps that I am already involved in and know the code. In general, I'm trying to slowly get out of coding in my life, so I want to work only on things where I can do it much quicker than someone else because I already did work on the original app for example. I also want to minimize having to learn new technologies if I can, getting too old. :) So I realize this is not much help, but maybe a little. :)

I'm working to set up an SSO Identifiant Provider and a common menu for the different apps of the ecosystem. As we though that for beginning we could use Communecter.org for dealing with the working groups, the common menu, the common database and the APIs to communicate with other apps, I can work on this task in collaboration with the Communecter developers team.

I don't know if I agree yet, would have to see how it will work. I am hesitant to create a center inside one of the open apps, I fear people will not see it as independent enough to make connections. All the open apps need to actually be peers in the ecosystem, in my opinion.

SSO is sorely needed, and a common menu can be very useful for groups who use different apps. I would be very hesitant to use Communecter directly though, no matter how good it is. Or are you forking it and taking pieces of the code that will be an independent app just for the open apps ecosystem?

Let's also figure out what would be needed in the common database and how to minimize that.

The discussion with Tibor on Tuesday will be at least partly about api's, can you come to that?

And/or - maybe all the technical participants should be part of a discussion of how to architect the peer to peer connections of open apps, even if just to start. This would be beyond the SSO itself.

I know you are jumping in, which I think is really really really great (did I say how great that is?? :) ), and I'm sorry if I am slowing things down, but I also think we need to consider together some of the main architectural decisions, or it risks not gaining acceptance.

What do you and others think?

want to build a team for?
Yes, we need specialists for each app
Thanks for your proposal to help for the apps you know

create a center inside one of the open apps
If we have a common menu, we need a common database to store it. For a start, I suggest to have it on only one server. After, if it works well and people are using it, we could work more to make this database P2P.

We need a platform where people can complete their profile, join groups, be geolocated on a map, have notifications and find other contributors or working groups. Communecter is well designed for managing all that, especially the groups and the relations between them. So I thought it could be the first platform to integrate in the ecosystem. Later, we could add others.

But I agree with you, we could think to create an independent database and software, only for connecting and communicating (via APIs) between the platforms (Communecter as the first one) and the others apps. This software would be the core of the Open App Ecosystem.

Forking Communecter would be a bad idea because we will have difficulties to integrate further enhancements. But Communecter can already communicate threw APIs.

I'm going to change strait away the technical document : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lhDJgyPB1f3zyLz3Zy626GEvxchwks0yDo-aA3LxSRI/edit

Thanks @lynnfoster for this analyses (tell me what you think about this new proposal), others mustn't hesitate to give their opinion !

If we have a common menu, we need a common database to store it. For a start, I suggest to have it on only one server.

I'm totally fine starting with a common database on one server for things that are ecosystem data, as needed. Ah yes, the money... I am not too worried in the short term, although it is a question for sure as we go forward and grow.... but for later when we have that "problem". :)

@bobhaugen I updated your thread, tell me what you think about that.

I guess the rules to make us work together are :
* If you do an ACTION related to open app ecosystem, add it in the wekan
* This ACTION must be understood in less than 30 sec
* For each ACTION it exists a "GUIDE : How to contribute to the action"
* This GUIDE is really easy to understand and enables anyone to contribute to the ACTION

Is it OK for you all ?

Mostly ok with me, but I don't know how you would tell if "This ACTION [could] be understood in less than 30 sec". I'd make it more like a suggestion, "Please make it as easy to understand as you can." But that's also just a suggestion, do what you will.

@bobhaugen I created a thread about it though. Seemed for me quite good to make everyone agree with it ;)

If I was new to this set of conversations, I would not respond well to all of those MUSTs. Do you understand why?

I don't understand what you mean.

Ah, good, you changed the one that bothered me the most...thank you.

things seem to be heating up in the channel :) +111

as for Communecter, it mustn't be a game breaker but a game builder , or just a brick amongst others.
In the process of buidling things for the french ecosystem working on the commons, We build a "no brand version" which is interesting for trying to step away from any Branding and naming issue. Which, many beleive (so do I ) is a big source of the problem.
Getting a real ecosystem to work out , means :
1 - we (any of our communities) can seemlessly use and benefit 1.1 from each of our features,
1.2 - from any of our open data content and Each communities users decide what is opendata and what is not

2 - we all contribute to a common system (database and/or feature base ) , that grows not only through a common app but by the relations and contributions of each the ecosystems plateform

I won't go into detail, on how we (Communecter) imagined and are doing all this , but it's happening with a few use cases (apps and apis interconnecting ) and will be getting better month after month.
This would be a great call for discussion amongst architects , designer and developpers as you propose @lynnfoster

@funkycram
Our friends at Framasoft have a user DB, that can access a whole list of open source projects , it's part of solution but not all of it , and if I'm not mistaken, they are building an Linux distrib OS based on whyYouNoHost , that only contains open source installed apps , all this because Framasoft doesn't want to host you as a user, and is going for a distributed mainstream system.
Anyone today can do this on his own computer, they are just packaging it conveniantly.
I still undrestand this is not exactly what you have in mind and you want something directly online without a system to install.
If the ecosystem works out, I think the question remains on who serves and pays the service ?

so let's make it a call, with pleasure

I think the question remains on who serves and pays the service ?

Very important question. I think one trend is everybody hosts their own node, and organizations host their own node.

I am not a bigtime blockchain fan, but blockchains pay for hosting and operating the consensus method(s) by transaction fees. We also see more organizations taking responsibility for developing as well as hosting their own systems.

[edit] I missed this question, read too fast:

I still undrestand this is not exactly what you have in mind and you want something directly online without a system to install.

I suspect different people in this group have different things in mind...

Yes, I would like to build an ecosystem for non "geek" people.
Give to everyone the possibility to work without proprietary software.

And link it to a social platform such as Communecter so people can meet each other and make their project being known (and much more !).

I think the question remains on who serves and pays the service ?

Ha ha ! That's an eternal problem. Let's do it, and if many people enjoy it we will ask them to contribute or help us to find resources.

I won't go into detail, on how we (Communecter) imagined and are doing all this , but it's happening with a few use cases (apps and apis interconnecting ) and will be getting better month after month. This would be a great call for discussion amongst architects , designer and developpers

I look forward to learning more of the detail and the use cases!

I'll start a separate discussion....

I think the question remains on who serves and pays the service ?

The question could be : Who makes this job ? Who construct the machines ? (If we think in term of new economical organisation)

https://hangouts.google.com/hangouts/_/ytl/-SQJ_Vi0kfW73_TL06RXhJjsz3c6iSd1B0Gj8GBqMOs=?hl=fr_FR&authuser=0

This hangout is starting now - to look at Communecter, and talk about vocabulary and interoperability. We'll record it, in case you wanted to join but couldn't.

here's the recording
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Yb5bomm-QE
thanks for joinning @lynnfoster @bobhaugen hope it was clear (and fun ;) )

I highly recommend people watch or at least skim the recording of today's demo. And yes it was fun! :)

We talked about others doing the same thing. Bob and I would volunteer to do one, in maybe 2 weeks. It would be NRP/OCP (brief because it is an app among many, not a linking app), Locecon (still pretty brief, might have some linking possibilities but we don't know), and ValueFlows (meant to create links among apps). If there is time in one session (which there well might be), we could also include the new Kamasi front-end, which also has linking possibilities, if @ivan116 is willing. It right now talks to NRP/OCP but the goal is to make it more independent.

Or if someone else wants to go first, that is good too.

We also talked about where to communicate. I'm dropping some links here for @tiborkatelbach to see if the Communecter vocabulary translation system can handle them. I'll also put them in the Wekan action, and also in https://chat.lescommuns.org/channel/open.apps.ecosystem once I get an account there.

They are from the ValueFlows Vocabulator demo.
* Agents:
* http://valueflows.pythonanywhere.com/vocab/agents/json/
* http://valueflows.pythonanywhere.com/vocab/agents/json-ld/
* Agent Relationships:
* http://valueflows.pythonanywhere.com/vocab/agentrelationships/json/
* http://valueflows.pythonanywhere.com/vocab/agentrelationships/json-ld/
* For a stretch goal, Processes:
* http://valueflows.pythonanywhere.com/vocab/processes/json/
* http://valueflows.pythonanywhere.com/vocab/processes/json-ld/

I need to get the process flows presented in json and json-ld, too, but in the meantime, here's a diagram.

I work on open technology standards-- not directly on any apps, for now. Of course, I think that Open App Ecosystem certainly needs to develop one or more standards (or protocols).

Here are my main recent works-in-progress:

• Modular Organization Terminology
• Peer-to-Peer Digital Networking
• Agreement-Based Governance
• Shared Resource Development and Support System

^ Please note that I'm refactoring my "Conversation for Action" prototype as a component of that "SRDSS" system.

I also have some IMO relevant "back burner" projects including:

• Distributed Media Network Governance
• Open Intermedia Commons

[Edit]: My designs are intentionally generic, and some of them probably aren't appropriate for trying to develop an Open App Ecosystem right now. Also, I don't want to "clutter up" the Wekan much.

I may add one or more of the three most fundamental active projects--MOT, P2PDN and ABG-- to the Wekan. It depends on how strictly you want this OAE effort to be focused.

Depending on how important you think vocabularies and protocols are, you might want to call out those parts of your works-in-progress that you think would be useful for those purposes.

@bobhaugen I think you've just found the perfect name for the vocabulary translation module : babelFish !! I loved the explanation :) , That book has been on my list for so long , it's about time I read it .
so babelFish it will be :)

babelFish is a good name, but it's already been trademarked by a specific translation app/platform: https://www.babelfish.com/about-us/

I'm no fan of copyright law (to put it mildly) but I think it'd be prudent to find another name. I could try to help if folks get stuck. Good luck!

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@jimwhitescarver would be really interesting to learn how many of those can work together in any integrated way. @ivan116 proposed a bot that could potentially integrate with a bunch of them. Might help...

Yes. Integration of the sources is necessary in my view. Whatever can be done by bots should be. I think the processes should also be integrated with our communications environment. The vision is chatops for everyone.

Perhaps we can try something like that in the Social Ledger Prototype Demo and Trial being discussed in the governance thread.

I suggest I create our demo mattermost team now and we experiment with bots and other integrations to prototype there. We might also consider using gitlab rather than wekan for integration with mattermost etc.

That social ledger project looks very interesting. I am buried until maybe Tuesday, but will try to make time to look at it.

Overall, though, we'll end up with the usual profusion of softwares that don't work well together, although each is wonderful individually: Loomio, RocketChat, Wekan, Communecter, Digilife, and yet another set of software suites for those of us who work with other organizations at the same time (Fair Coop, Sensorica, LearnDeep, Open Coop, P2PFoundation, etc etc etc).

And I don't want any one of those environments to become "the center" and dominate all the others.

If I have anything to do with it that wont happen. Interoperability is key to a viable app ecosystem. Integrations enable interoperation. Standards and frameworks simplify integration. That rocketchat and mattermost both have a degree of slack API compatibility means the branches of our integrations could be more or less agnostic to what is being integrated with. In so far as we can implement a standard API for any tool the can be integrated readily.

Good! A bot or two would be a useful experiment.

here's a starting point to experiment and visualize the open Apps Ecosystem , it might be a way to see who is who and where
https://www.communecter.org/#oae
Every one and anyone can create Organizations, People, Members , Projects and events with a geographic visualisation

FYI, a two-part essay "Developing P2P Networking and Nonlinear Dialogue" broadly outlining my key design priorities:

Part One Part Two

These priorities could be harmonized with an open app ecosystem through varied degrees of coordination and collaboration.

Cited here: https://www.loomio.org/d/3wDCtkoG/structuring-the-oae-around-agents?from=7

https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/project-of-the-day-framasoft-free-and-libre-alternatives-to-netarchical-collaborative-platforms/2017/12/24

I am working on a mindmap of various projects
https://framindmap.org/c/maps/436408/public
and learn about these projects

Hi @christopheparot1 that looks like a useful map - it's funny you know... most people who arrive here are all very keen on building a map ;) - me included! I think it is a valiant aim. But imho it will never be inclusive enough, or up to date enough, or useful enough, unless it is an open map, to which anyone can add, classify, describe and update links... It's great that Greg has made suggestions for your map, but imagine if we could all contribute to the same map... I made the same suggestion about the excellent map at https://kumu.io/DigitalLife/digital-life-collective but I am not sure if that is open for submissions yet..?

A few questions, to all in this group:

Would others here be interested in contributing to an open map? (Suggested title 'OAE related projects' or similar...)

Is there a way we can do that with Framindmap, or is there a better / more suitable tool?

Ideally I would suggest we need to use a tool which allows a collaborative map to be embedded on other sites (and I can't see how to do that with Framindmap!? )e.g. if this was possible I would definitely be us for including it on http://collaborative.tech/

Best
Oli

https://kumu.io/DigitalLife/digital-life-collective is open for submissions https://github.com/DigitalLifeCollective/mapped-projects An easier interface for submissions might be nice.

I suggest a few other projects which you @christopheparot1 (and perhaps all of us) may want to consider for mapping purposes:

* Patchwork

* Beaker Browser

* Holochain

(Those github links may not be the best intro to each project, but it's a way to consistently document their public workspaces)

I think that's what metamaps is for
in fact there allready are a few maps out there maybe @Ishan or @Connor have some idea
https://metamaps.cc/maps/469

But imho it will never be inclusive enough, or up to date enough, or useful enough, unless it is an open map, to which anyone can add, classify, describe and update links... It's great that Greg has made suggestions for your map, but imagine if we could all contribute to the same map...

This discussion about maps (like metamaps and framindmap referenced above) makes me think again about what it might mean to make an open app ecosystem. I think we always need to be open to multiple apps that do basically the same thing, people will have preferences for their specific purposes, technology will continue to march along, etc.

What if in addition to having open maps (the minimum requirement), we have a way that people can publish the data of their choice (for themselves or an organization) once under their control, and the mapping apps that are part of the ecosystem can pick it all up? Some kind of a many-to-many registration structure between agent data and map apps? Lots of architectural issues, I'm aware.... but the more we talk about it all, the more I go down that road.... is the open app ecosystem basically about defining and standardizing the space between apps?

(Sorry if going too far OT)

Hi @lynnfoster @tiborkatelbach thanks for the reminder about Metamaps - is that particular map open i.e. can anyone contribute to it? (I'm awaiting my login for Metamaps). I'm not sure if it can be embedded elsewhere either?... and actually, although I understand the categorization is probably better (deeper) than a standard mindmap, I actually find the map @christopheparot1 made much easier to read ... and imagine beginners would too.

RE "..a way that people can publish the data of their choice (for themselves or an organization) once under their control, and the mapping apps that are part of the ecosystem can pick it all up" I love this idea. It's the future for sure as it fits with the "I own my data" concept... it reminds me of the old FOAF file concept https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOAF_(ontology) I can easily imagine a 'MAPME' RDF file doing exactly what you describe.

But in the short term I still think there is a need for a very simple map, of the kind Christope has started, while we work out how best to define, standardise and encourage utilization of the user-centric "MAPME" version.

@olisb i think that if you register to Framindmap, you can modify my map. It can be embedded and export in mm and other format. The idea was to organize the projects I am working on and introducing myself in the same time. If the map is getting bigger, you need a curation of the software/projects. This is what Framasoft have been doing for more than 10 years now, evaluating and promoting open source software. Their library included hundreds of open source software. I don't know if there is a similar ngo in the English world.

I wonder if Framasoft would be interested in tying a bunch of their apps into more of an ecosystem? Like what @funkycram and others are doing with single-signon, or (more advanced) what DigLife is doing with a bot and some dashboards, or what @ivan116 is doing with a personal agent app, or what he and @lynnfoster are proposing in FairCoop by communicating between apps with a common vocabulary and connecting them into an economic network?

Do they offer single-signon now?

I have to learn all these techs !

No, Framasoft don't offer SSO, sure there should be something to do with them.
Does somebody know https://disroot.org/en#_white-bar ? I found very great what they do and I think we could collaborate with them.

@funkycram what differences do you see between disroot and framasoft? Another set of projects developing the same system? (FairCoop has another similar project, and DigLife contains a set of curated and hosted apps, too.)

Framasoft : much more apps, customised for Framasfot, no SSO, for everybody
Disroot : less apps, out of the box (no customisation), sort of SSO (one account, but it doesn't look to be a real SSO), seems to be more for activists. Their principles : freedom, privacy, federation and decentralisation

@olisb is Digital Life collective accepting one of these currencies : Ğ1, Grantcoin, VIVA, Steem or BTS? I would become a member.

G1 <3

Theory : http://en.trm.creationmonetaire.info/index.html
Forum to claim your universal dividend : https://forum.duniter.org/
Website : https://duniter.org/en/

I'll sponsor you in diglife @christopheparot1 if you like. While I question the morality of using central bank money I say use them til you lose them. There are a minority of monetary reformists in https://diglife.com and we need you. You can still join for $10. Soom they are removing the choices and having a flat rate of $20.

not sure if DigLife is accepting anything other than normal currency atm - probably best to ask @jimwhitescarver

To be able to modify a framindmap, the author has to add the mail of new participants.

So if you want to be added, you are welcome to send me your mail at [email protected]

That's cool :) but it sounds like a bit too much admin for it to be classified as a totally open map... maybe not, since if you were to get lots of Admins I guess new people could be added pretty quickly.

I'm keen to collaborate on a mapping project but want to see if we can build a wider consensus between as many people as possible to encourage greater collaboration and more useful / scale-able results then we can achieve with just a few people...

I'm not sure how best to do that but hopefully you can see my point: that if there was a map which anyone could add to, which was promoted by several groups as the starting point for anyone interested in the existing Open Apps it might gain the kind of momentum we need by benefiting from "the network effect".

One idea to think about, that would be in the spirit of Open Apps, would be for a registry where different people could register their apps that they want to be part of the ecosystem.

That's not a proposal (yet), I don't have enuf details on how it might work, or what problems might present themselves...but I think it could be done in a fairly simple and decentralized way, where people just put something on their repo or website that says OAE candidate in some way (could even be just a hashtag), and other people could pick it up in normal web searches.

Come to think of it, that's not much like a registry...

It could be an exercise or a research project on wikiversity, every body can open an account and add his Apps in the page.

Be nice if we could somehow build on the Linked Open Data mapping work of the Solidarity Economy Association see also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkuGjkN6IXo

Lynn and I tried to connect to them a couple of years ago to see if we could collaborate on vocabularies between ValueFlows and SSE, and failed. Maybe somebody else would have better luck. We'd still like to do it, and have a project coming up with the Mutual Aid Networks where it might fit.

We also looked at ESSGlobal vocabulary to see if we could just use it or use pieces of it, but it was too limited in scope for what we wanted to do. But definitely, always interested in seeing if we can collaborate.

And @jdaviescoates nice to see you here!

Framasoft have classified and curated 1,600 software, it is huge ! Framasoft is oriented toward the French speaking community

I guess it might be a good time to talk about what I started doing here
https://www.communecter.org/#oae.view.directory.dir.members

we have a whole bunch of features constantly evolving since 4years now
the first interesting one corresponds to Lynn's previous post about
- everything is shareable and can be reused and interoperated with
- everything is available in multiple extraction formats with the opendata api (BabelFish Module)
- everything is geolocated and tagged
- we have community social bookmarking tool for all our findings
- members can be people or organizations and they can be given roles if needed
- the mapping can reference People, Organizations, Projects, Events , POI internationaly
- we fully integrated RocketChat into it , and other open source projects will soon follow integration
- we recently integrated a graph representation of organizations and search results
I'd be glad to do a live presentation for the purpose of the mapping initiative
if anyone wants to see it in action or answer any specific questions
​

I'd be up for a live presentation. I did have some experience, but not enough to get the whole set of potentials.

Hi , I'm reaching out with a similar initiative ctznmuv.org. The CTZN initiative started with the idea that progress should be accessible and inclusive - Costs Sharing and Price Sharing where my initial starting point in 2016. The ultimate aim being an Open Value Network that is accessible to the general public; Developing an economic sustainability for the one and the many - rather than just another ''smart gig'' platform - We want to tackle an over 10billion dollar industry that is emerging: the collaborative economy ( https://p2pmodels.eu/who-are-the-owners-of-collaborative-economy/ ).

Lots of Proof of concept already showed the impact of critical mass. Beyond custom site functionalities, at the moment I'm faced with few options (through the accessible communs of sensorica, github, etc) in my attempted in the development / implementation of features and future upgrades. I was hoping to connect with people of common value to better a vision that could be developed and benefit from a shared mutual interest to converge ideas, knowledge and solutions.

Hi @Nassima Mecheri . Thanks for your post. I have had a quick look. Just to be clear the site is a proof of concept? There is no OVN engine in the backend yet? I tried to log in but the system seemed to hang. Do you have mockup screens for how you want the interface for users to look and behave? I tried to find an about section so who is the "we" behind this? Look forward to your reply. Cheers Daniel (Kendraio)

@Daniel Harris Thank you for the prompt response. At this time, the site is no way near to be a proof of concept but rather a prototype attempt of the platform that requires advanced programming skills. I face limits that require more technical knowledge.

The OVN is not implemented but was used with combination of the current socio-economic reality to emerge a new model that would influence the futur of work that is already impacted by the ''Tasking'' industry that is expanding on the old capitalist model.

I tried to reach out to more conventional blockchain developers and other collaborative platforms as initialiy I was thinking in terms of integrated tools for reward and reputation management and engagement (clickup , padlet , etc ) that I wouldn't have to reinvente. Then in the last 5 months,after talking to experts...We need to do this right and not fast; I've been thinking crypto, Holo, and at this point to redirecting the entire project; it's been on hold for few weeks now. But we definitely need a proof of concept relatable to the general public (less or non-academic) to unlock progress.

this website was meant as a mockup preview. An email sign up gives access to the members pages.

Some already have tried to define the value contribution; if not financial, on a personal and practical level: it enhances creativity with idea generation, helps forcing decisions with prioritization, move forward implementation with the validation it brings: https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Collaborative-business-modelling-for-systemic-and-Rohrbeck-Konnertz/f38ebeff617366f0705915184b046d1c444cdfac

In the mean time, the reality is urging the necessity for action... Testing of the customized derivatives solution is now underway, with an incremental rollout scheduled for early 2020: https://greyswan.com/login (Haven't requested access but following closely )

READ MORE AT : https://finance.yahoo.com/news/fetch-ai-grey-swan-digital-102000944.html

Hi @Nassima Mecheri . What I am interested in is how you intend humans to interface with your system. If you can show me a schematic and workflow of the walkthrough then this can be built. Have you got something like that? If not can I encourage you to build the plan so that developers can build your dreams? Cheers Daniel

Sure @Daniel Harris , I do have the few drafts... Point valuation at this stage, is symbolic...

Yeah, this seems huge, but only buildable once you start specifying human interfaces. I mean developers need wireframes and walkthroughs and use cases. Is this an app or a platform? How will you drive adoption?

Indeed :) little UML and some more work need to be done. It's a platform... the key is to balance the project demand with supply of resources, select and prioritize the right project organically , deliver and control more effectively, and ultimately move the organization to its “future state.”

1. And how does your platform interoperate with all the 1000s of other platforms already in existence and operational with real users?

2. And why would I use your platform rather than anyone else's: elevator pitch?

3. And what is your strategy for getting users? Remember good technology doesn't get adopted by itself. What's your hook?

1.And how does your platform interoperate with all the 1000s of other platforms already in existence and operational with real users?

At the moment thirdparties are embedded and are available with reward and/or affiliate programs. We should be able to do it differently if we don't what to end up like these other 1000s of platforms.

2.And why would I use your platform rather than anyone else's: elevator pitch?

It answers the questions : what can i do? how can I help? where do I go? While reaching out to all people from all kind of backgrounds, industries and levels of education. Interactions of individuals; acting as a whole to shape the world that we collectively want to live in.

3.And what is your strategy for getting users? Remember good technology doesn't get adopted by itself. What's your hook?

Self-sufficiency, privacy and transparency for the platform and for the participants, while staying open to known revenue streams available: dominate with functionality , connected tools with reward system. I think, in the long term, this has the potential to provide a basic revenue to all its contributors and if not financial , it gives opportunities of a more conscious life.

Like Nature and Science showed, life is beautiful, complex and everything has a purpose. Hoping to converge ideas, knowledge and solutions.