"Pirates inform themselves" of course, but they also provide the information in the best possible way for sharing.

So I tried to gather the info that I could find about PPEU (only PPEU, not talking about PPI, otherwise we will all be lost).

• August 2013 : "Belgium" sent Koen, Paul and Kash as delegates at the PPEU
• 19/01/2014 : at a PPBe GA, we decided to join PPEU which hadn't been founded then, because it was our last opportunity to do it before the European elections.
• 16/02/2014 : At a Coreteam meeting, PPEU is discussed. It is "in its founding stages", and the Coreteam named Paul B. and Kash as delegates.
• 21/03/2014 : PPEU was founded in Brussels. Paul B. became member of the board.
• 20/04/2014 : At another Coreteam meeting, Thomas became delegate.
• 16/06/2014 : Last time it was mentionned at a Coreteam meeting, Paul B. said that PPEU was "not really useful for the moment".
• 17-18/07/2015 : the 1st Council Meeting (= GA) of PPEU is held, I see no trace of PPBe there (but as you can see in the link, there is not much information to be seen either).

That is basically all I can find on PPEU, so it's a bit hard to find reasons to keep being a member when it's such a black box. Not even mentioning the fact that it is very odd to have such an opaque and hierarchical organization above us (it complicates everything with delegations, representative democracy etc).

And on a personal note, I'm very happy of what @hgo brings to the PPBe since years, it has been most helpful to help sharing the information between us and organize better in many ways. But let's keep this topic to PPEU :)

Thank you Renaud,

As you so kindly point out, PPBE has formally decided to join PPEU in 2014. We have never formally decided leave the organisation. So technically we are a member and in doing so have obligations both in representation and and financial contributions. I have merely asked to either take up those responsibilities or formally resign from the organisation. And that we should make this decision clear before the planned Council meeting in Prague. I plan to attend that meeting as observer regardless of any decision by PPBE. And I am willing to defend any position PPBE is taking if asked to do so. I would gladly see an international team/squad in Belgium re-emerge. That is the reason I organised an event for the last PPI online GA. I would be happy if interest is higher. It offers a real possibility to contribute to the international development of the Pirate movement.

It is absolutely true that PPEU so far has failed to achieve even the most fundamental things it's required to do by it's statutes/GA. So indeed there are valid reasons to leave the organisation. My personal position on PPEU has shifted back and forth a lot during the last year or so. Currently I favour staying in the organisation. Leaving an organisation because it is not functioning the way you like feels like an NVA approach. I believe we should try to contribute constructively to the further development of PPEU. The large membership costs are one of the main arguments for leaving I see. Now I will repeat my original question, shall we confirm our membership before the planned meeting in Prague, or shall we leave the organisation. And how will we take that decision. Here on loomio? Doesn't feel like the right place. There is next to nobody here. Waiting for the next GA then maybe?

And I would like to thank HgO for his last email proving my point about not informing himself.

There is a 3rd way, actually: Article 8 of PPEU's statutes allows us to be an observer member.
No offense ment, but I don't think PPEU's membership is worth 300€ today.

Speaking of the membership fee, I wouldn't be suprised if PPBE had accepted to be a member before this condition was added. In that case, since (to my knowledge) we have never paid that fee, we are de facto at best observer members.

Well actually yes, stupid of me to not think about that, I suggest we become an observer member of PPEU for the time being.

Vincent +1

Koen, could you stop attacking me ? You don't know me, so please keep your opinion of me for yourself. Thanks.

I propose to discuss about this during the next lab, on 28th October.

For the membership, I agree with Vincent that we could be an observer member until we have made our decision.

It is also possible to start a proposition here on Loomio. It's open, transparent and public.

Subject

Let's consider PPBE as an observer member of PPEU

** Content **

According to Article 8 of PPEU status, do we - PPBE - agree to become an observer member and to have .... (Koen if you wish?) as our representative.

During your vote, add a comment if you want to involve yourself on a PPBE and international pirates project (squad) and contribute to build relations between PPEU, PPI, and other Pirates parties and movements.

Remember this vote and comment is public.

** Closing date**

Some time before the Prague meeting?

This is an example, copy/paste it or adapt it. @koendv it will be coherent if it's you who launches it.

Regards

No that is not what Vincent said, and it's not a viable option. If you would have read Renaud's mail you would see that we are a member since 2014. Technically we seem to have an outstanding debt to PPEU of 1200 euro. (Membership fees for 2014/2015/2016/2017, 300euro each) I don't believe PPEU will actually force us to pay that sum, as several members have not paid their fees. Still I believe it best we take a decision on the matter before the next Council meeting, or at the very least before the end of the year. Then again we might be kicked out, or kicked down to observer member at the next Council meeting, because we have not for filled our obligations to the organisation, regardless of our decision.

I would like us to pay gladly the 1200 euro if they would dare to make the point at the European Union and explain its gigantic democratic deficit.

As stated in the PPEU statutes :

(8) If a Member Party did not pay their due membership fee for two consecutive years until the first Council meeting of the second year, they are deemed to have left the Association by resignation automatically.

Therefore, according to their statutes, we are currently not an ordinary member of the PPEU. And there is no way we will pay 1200€, since we weren't represented at the previous GA, according to the minutes Renaud pointed.

Hmm, it would have made more sense if that would have been in section:

Article 12 – Resignation, Exclusion, Suspension, Loss of Membership and Death / Dissolution / Bankruptcy

So seems we were member in 2014 and 2015, and have a debt of only 800 euro. (Which I don't think we will ever have to pay) Good news in a way, I guess. That means we were invited in error actually. Looking a bit further at their website that actually means PPEU has no parties as member at all. Or we might still be overlooking a Council decision that wavers the fees or something...

Great to see that you did finally read something, maybe there it hope for you yet.

That last comment of you was completely useless and irritating, @koendv Please stop?

Anyway, now something is clear (unless someone disagrees?) : PPBe is not a member of PPEU at the current time.

Merci Renaud pour le job de mise à disposition d infos. Je suis sans wifi sans ordi avec de la 3g et un Windows phone qui bugue sur loomio alors s il y en a bien une qui ne s informe pas par elle même sur le ppeurop (et sur pleins d autres trucs) c est moi bien plus q hgo. La discussion prend une sale tournure je trouve parcequ elle nous en apprends plusieurs fois plus sur les querelles internes que sur le fond du sujet même si ça m a fait sourire. Je ne sais pas si c est a 52 inscrits loomio que revient la légitimité de décider quoiquecesoit sur la question ou une autre mais si un vote se fait ici je voterais actuellement pour la sortie officielle. Bonne journee. Flo

Bonjour Florence,

En effet, un vote sur Loomio serait purement consultatif. De toute façon l'ambigüité est résolue:
Nous ne sommes plus membres, et ce en parfait accord avec les statuts des deux organisations.

Aussi loin que je me souvienne, les instances pirates internationales ont toujours été une pomme de discorde. La meilleure stratégie est celle de @vanecx , qui consiste à recadrer le débat et éliminer les obstacles. Big up, Renaud!

Outside of this debate around PPEU : Czech national elections end today.

All votes have not been counted yet, but Pirates should have about 9-10% and about 22 members in the Czech Parliament (out of 200 in total).

Next weekend it's the Icelandic elections (since the government collapsed), and the first ones without Birgitta Jónsdóttir. Pirates currently have about 8-10% in the polls.

It was national elections' day yesterday in Iceland.

Pirates have won 9.2% (6 seats, out of 63), which is much lower than last elections where they had won 14.5% and 10 seats. That makes them the 6th largest party in a very divided parliament.

But still, they are members of the national parliament for the 3d time in a row.

Complete results : http://icelandmonitor.mbl.is/elections2017/

I've sent the following reply to the official invitation to the PPEU's GA :

Dear Thomas,

Thank you for this invitation to the next PPEU's General Assembly.

We discussed about this internally, and it appears that we never paid our membership fees. This means that the PPBe is not officially a member of the PPEU.

We will need to decide whether we want to join again the PPEU or not, probably during our next GA (we haven't decided of a date yet).

Therefore, I'm sorry to say that we won't send a delegate to this GA.

Pirately yours,

Hadrien ~ HgO, PPBe

That's better then nothing! Thanks

I forgot to mention, but I think most of you already know it :

• the new mayor of Prague is a Pirate : https://torrentfreak.com/the-new-mayor-of-prague-is-a-pirate-181029/ (unless the czech pirates crash in the next months, their current results would mean we will keep a presence in the European Parliament)

• In the Grand Duchy of Luxemburg, there were national elections, and 2 pirates managed to become elected in the national chamber. We currently have pirates elected at national offices in 3 countries : Iceland, Czech republic and Luxemburg.

Email received this afternoon at contact@ppbe :

Dear all,
Given that the EU-elections are coming closer very quickly I would like to set up a meeting between pirates active in the Greater Region (Wallonia, German part of Belgium, Lorraine, Saarland, Rheinland-Pfalz and Luxembourg).
As you know, we managed to capture two seats in the national elections in Luxembourg and we are currently trying to somehow manage to set-up a competitive list for the 2019 EU elections where we might be lucky enough to capture one out of 6 seats.
To achieve this ambitious goal we might need your help and support, especially targeting Luxembourgers living across your borders (~51.000 ppl). One scenario imaginable would be us providing you with posters in your languages (reduces your budget, increases our common visibility). Yet nothing has yet been decided at this stage, especially as we would like to gather your feedback first.
Given that we have our electoral congress for the EU list on December 15th I would like to invite you to come to Luxembourg on that weekend and/or send a delegation to discuss how we can pragmatically cooperate without too much overhead in order to get the best possible outcome in the EU elections.
We as PPLU would also be ready to help setup and/or maintain local chapters of your respective parties in the border region, as those increase our common visibility. Yet here as well, the initiative needs to come from you, as we don't want to force anything upon you. Both, Marc and myself, are willing to visit those (potential) chapters and lend a hand in order to revive the Pirate activities in the Greater Region and especially in the region bordering Luxembourg.
Who would be in to meet up for a working lunch on Sunday December 16th in Luxembourg-City?
Of course you might also join us informally for the EU-congress on Saturday morning and we could arrange for informal meeting throughout the weekend as well as a cultural program.
Kind regards,
Sven Clement
President & Member of Parliament
Piraten Lëtzebuerg

us providing you with posters
reduces your budget
:laughing:

I wouldn't mind tho, I just think it's funny how they say it :laughing:

It would be good for international communication as well! (And maybe share ideas about international coöperation).

I would be happy to answer their message. Do you agree with that?

No answer: I consider it's OK for you. I do it this evening.

FYI: I answered their mail two weeks ago but no reply from Piraten Lëtzebuerg (Sven Clement).

Forwarding an email that I received from Markéta Gregorová, chairperson of PPEU (sorry about the Google links...) :

Dearest Pirates!

It happened. After many many hours of your work and dedication, we have a final version of the 2019 CEEP!

It can be seen here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1H2Jdwx-W7527-GyZQPTHtVeZaAxmwX3HDbbPlt2pE0Q/edit?usp=sharing

I took the liberty and put it into some kind of a form with pictures and stuff, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is the final one. :) I also divided it into sections, let me know, if you think they are good or feel free to suggest changes. I'm discussing with Bastian a website for it right now, so stay tuned!

So, what now?

Start translating it and putting it into vote in your country, so that most of us can manage to really sign it on 9th February in Luxembourg.
I kindly ask everyone proficient in English or native speakers to go through the document and make a language and grammar check.
I personally consider the form readable, even though some parts consist more of paragraphs of texts and some of bullet points. But of course I'd like us to decide consensually. So please vote in this poll to decide the form: https://linkto.run/p/Q255FFGT until 10th January, thank you!

There is also a parallel discussion on choosing 3-5 priorities to promote. I fell in love with polls :D, so I'm offering that you can vote on and add any priorities here: https://pollunit.com/en/polls/uGqrTo0ISO_mDWkir0r6dQ. Let's close this one at the end of January, before the Luxembourg meeting. :)

I wish you a great beginning of the year and best,

Markéta Gregorová

Foreign affairs missing ?

p. 26 and following

Yes I've seen that but still, it is not sufficient. What about commercial wars with China, USA, etc.

On first sight and samling some parts of the text, I don't see any reason to not approve it. So my current default vote is 'approved'

Yeap, I would have add some stuff, but that's straight forward. Not bad at all at first reading. But I need to read it again.

It wants to be explicit by being a program, but then it is awkwardly superficial, but on the other hand, there is nothing which says we can not at least be ok with it (approving is a bit too strong for me). I really miss being explicit about the problem instead of proposing half baked solutions: buses and trains might not exist in the future. It will be shared cars and hyperloops. And where is our basic income?

It is much much better than nothing ! I am already very happy with it. Trying to reach perfection could drive us to nowhere by producing nothing. I prefer something that can be improved than a project that is never finished because we want it perfect and rework it non-stop.

It helps to say we have common ground on the European level, but strictly speaking we don't need it.

Hello, the PPEU treasurer contacted us to have the PPBe coordinates in order to update their databese. He asked Name of contact person (if applicable) / Official Address of the national party / Phone / Preferred email. I answered him to give our contact address (which he already has because that's how he contacted us), and nothing else because it's all I have. He's now insisting that he needs at least a physicial address, even proposes to setup one for us in Luxembourg, so we can receive... the invoice for our membership.

I'm informing you so you know, but as we have already discussed it a year ago (see above), I'll inform him that we are not ordinary member anymore and we don't ask for a physical address in Luxembourg.

Hello, it's me (mario), and I come to haunt you with PPEU stuff.

Markéta, who is the chairperson of PPEU, contacted me after my exchange with PPEU treasurer. She suggested we become Observer Member of PPEU.

The obligation for an Observer member :
- to stay politically active and participate in elections, if possible and feasible
- we don't have to pay a fee

The rights, as Observer member :
a) to participate in the political discussions and to speak at Council meetings,
b) to participate in the development of the political agenda,
c) to participate in the decision making process,
d) to have access to all non-confidential documents of the Association,
e) to participate in common campaigns and events and
f) to have access to use of the Associations logo and other representational devices.

I believe that this solution would provide us with at least one advantage : our status would be clearer, in relationship with PPEU. So, unless someone proposes another way, I'll open this week a proposal to become Observer to formalize it, so we can move on for now.

Seems ok to me at first sight, but I am curious about the sentence "to have access to all non-confidential documents of the Association" (which apparently applies to both Ordinary & Observer Members): what are the confidential documents about? and who has access to them if even ordinary members don't have access to them?

what are the confidential documents about?

I'd like to know that to. Another thing, what are the non-confidential documents and what's so special that they need explicit mentioning? Are they not public by default? (If not, I say leak 'em :sunglasses: )

No objections to observing member, but they do seem as bad as PPI with all their red tape Isn't this supposed to be the party of the internet? More efficient and stuff...?

.> to participate in the political discussions
.> to participate in the development of the political agenda
.> to participate in common campaigns and events
Other things you shouldn't have to be member for imo

I propose to give everyone access by proxy ^{^}

they do seem as bad as PPI

@iljabaert I'd say that they suffer the same flaws (not enough transparency, delegation-based organization), but I see more need for PPEU to exist (it coordinated, somehow, the making of the program ; there is probably a need for a European party for EU institutions), still looking for reasons to exist for PPI (giving thousands of euros to developers for their infrastructure?). Also, PPI by nature is indeed a collection of Pirate Parties, and PPEU doesn't have to be like that, could just be the gathering of European Pirates, so I have more hope. Or I'm less desperate.

PPEU has preformed worse than PPI in the last couple of years. (Not having regular board meetings, not organising an annual GA) Both PPI and PPEU have been established as umbrella organisations of Pirate Parties.

There is a third less know organisation that aims at bringing individual pirates from around the globe together called "Pirates without Borders". PWOB seems to be mostly inactive now.

Unlike PPEU, PPI however has introduced individual membership a few years ago. Although this is currently basically a supporter without added voting right or anything. A good fleshed out proposal on how to balance voting power in an organisation that has both parties and individual members would be more then welcome.

The main problem facing all these organisations is the same, great ambitions and goals, lack of volunteers and lack of funding. Which can also be said about most national/local Pirate Parties by the way.

Transparency can certainly be improved in both organisations. However they both have public board meetings and the meeting reports are published. Making them both more transparent then PPBE for example.

PPEU will get its own funding from the EU as soon as there are Pirates elected on the Regional/National/European in at least 7 EU countries. We currently qualify in just 3 countries. (PPCZ, PPDE, PPLU (Iceland is not an EU member) So technically there is no need for PPEU at this time. Building a common program doesn't require an organisation. The organisation didn't exist the first time we did that.

PPI is representing Pirates at the United Nations both in Geneva and New York. For this work to continue a formal organisation is required by the UN. A lot of work is needed for this and it's definitely an area were more communication/transparency to the Pirates and the outside world in general is required.

I also don't see any reason why IT infrastructure would be better organised at an EU then an International level.

Being a (observer) member of PPEU only, and not PPI seems odd considering the current state of affairs.

Email received today at [email protected]

Translation : we're invited PPEU Congress in a few weeks in Luxembourg.

Sorry about the Google links, as usual... :sick:

Bonjour aux pirate de la Belgique !

Cette année le congrès des pirates européens au thème des élections européenne le 26 mai 2019 aura lieu à Luxembourg le 9 février 2019 au
Centre Culturel Schéiss

142 Val Sainte-Croix

L-1370 Luxembourg

Nous espérons que vous participez à ce weekend pirate.

Diffusez-le mot et rejoignez-nous et rencontrez-les pirates européens avec entre autre ces activités :

Un atelier avec Julia Reda, membre du parlement européen
des invités spéciales
une visite du parlement, de la ville de Luxembourg
le lieu de signature de l’accord de Schengen
une conférence de presse
et plus

Tous les pirates qui désirent nous rejoindre doivent remplir ce formulaire

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSc-9EjTNTy1bGT4x5INpZcJkuAGYI5Sj4XD0uyK3gCzEppIrQ/viewform?fbclid=IwAR1L85KF40KixoP3pEz0twqsFkj5p9fBwF457oEVpoz9eUOHBDK9DJBjxT4

pour les événement sociaux et les visites, enregistrez-vous ici.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeHRgudQIGPvDjSdE8iiLfkzhNxRzT9Ly8KQPpfaxZyH3uu-g/viewform

Bon weekend au pirates belges !

Cordialement

Nathalie Goedert
Piratepartei Lëtzebuerg

+352 20 60 66 60
[email protected]

[ENG] FYI, there are now 4 Pirates in the European Parliament (instead of just 1), so that's good news. 3 of them come from Czechia and 1 from Germany. One question remains : which political group will they join?

[FR] Pour info pour les distraits, nous avons désormais 4 Pirates au Parlement européen, au lieu d'1. 3 proviennent de Tchéquie et 1 d'Allemagne. Une question reste ouverte : à quel groupe européen vont-ils s'affilier ?

So Pirates have joined the Greens/EFA group in the European Parliament, which is the same group as our Pirates were in the 2 previous terms (Andersdotter+Engström in 2009 ; Reda in 2014).

Have also joined this group : a German elected for DiePARTEI (a satiric party), an elected for VOLT and, probably, Carles Puigdemont (but he is not allowed yet to work as MEP because he should take an oath in Madrid, but if he goes he'll be arrested).

Damian Boeselager, German MEP from Volt is also joining Green/EFA

Op 14/06/19 om 21:18 schreef Renaud Van
Eeckhout (Loomio):

ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿ

Renaud Van Eeckhout

Renaud Van Eeckhout gaf commentaar in: European Pirate Party ( https://www.loomio.org/d/B9G1WsfK/comment/2025752?membership_token=pGgLg7bEWM62msy2GuUidJby&utm_campaign=discussion_mailer&utm_medium=email&utm_source=new_comment )

So Pirates have joined the Greens/EFA group in the European
Parliament, which is the same group as our Pirates were in the 2
previous terms (Andersdotter+Engström in 2009 ; Reda in 2014).

Have also joined this group : a German elected for DiePARTEI (a
satiric party),

Beantwoord deze e-mail onmiddelijk of bekijk het op Loomio ( https://www.loomio.org/d/B9G1WsfK/comment/2025752?membership_token=pGgLg7bEWM62msy2GuUidJby&utm_campaign=discussion_mailer&utm_medium=email&utm_source=new_comment ).

Zet E-mails af ( https://www.loomio.org/email_actions/unfollow_discussion/240409/PRb-Be4LDZqwUKvwxqx9?utm_campaign=discussion_mailer&utm_medium=email&utm_source=new_comment ) voor deze
discussie.
Verander je e-mailvoorkeuren ( https://www.loomio.org/email_preferences?unsubscribe_token=PRb-Be4LDZqwUKvwxqx9&utm_campaign=discussion_mailer&utm_medium=email&utm_source=new_comment ).

Logo

Sent via Migadu.com, world's easiest email hosting ( https://migadu.com?s=sent_via )

Marel Kolaja just elected as vice-president of the European parliament !

Did you apply for some position in the Pirate MEP's team already, or did nothing catch your interest yet? A new procurement for public advisors have been opened and so a new chance for you to join the smiling team on the photo! ;D

Markéta was looking separately for an advisor focused on INTA, AFET and SEDE, however both her and others are also keen on welcoming anyone that is focused on various committees. Pirates are known for their sharing (and caring :)). Do you see yourself somewhere in the mix of IMCO, CULT, JURI, LIBE, INTA, AFET and SEDE? Don't hesitate to let us know!

https://european-pirateparty.eu/pirate-meps-are-looking-for-their-team/?fbclid=IwAR1ZlQAIQBWP4zE7efiPw7pispX19b4EDDEGiQ3j5SqnqckC8vTfnc6s3FI
(direct link to procurement: https://www.lmcg2.com/pd/1394434806/?rps=202)

If you dislike upload filters & censorship, this should trigger you :

EU terror filter negotiations to begin: Here’s where we stand

https://european-pirateparty.eu/eu-terror-filter-negotiations-to-begin-heres-where-we-stand/

FYI:

The Pirate Grassroot Fund is starting

Last ppEU - Council Meeting a fund for all sorts of grassroots projects done by pirates has been approved. Now is the time to work on building the framework for this fund, create the workgroup and find suitable projects. If you are interested, please add yourself to the 1st meeting doodle:

https://doodle.com/poll/ceiq2kh5rge9pgm2

The minutes from that last Council Meeting mentioned: https://wiki.ppeu.net/doku.php?id=7th_council_meeting_2020:minutes_day1 (it was in november)