Loomio
Tue 12 Dec 2023 3:21PM

Disputed payment from a social.coop user

G Graham Public Seen by 11

On Nov 15 we got a notification from Stripe that a payment into Platform 6, made by a social.coop user, had been disputed. As far as I could ascertain from the information made available to us, the payment was the second payment from the user, with the first being made a year earlier, using the same card.

My guess was that the person had not twigged that when they made the first payment they had set up an annual recurring payment, and when it happened they were perhaps confused and consequently flagged it up to their bank as unauthorised. Anyone with access to the social.coop open collective can probably see the records concerned, and I'm happy to share more details but probably not here (which is fairly open).

It's the first time this has happened for us, so in the very limited time I had available (this coincided with a very busy few weeks) I read up a bit on the advice offered by Stripe, and was able to a) write to the person concerned as advised, explaining what I thought had happened, and asking them to rescind the dispute so that we could resolve the issue one way or the other, and b) not knowing how best to inform the social.coop community, I sent a brief email to Matt Noyes setting out in brief what had happened.

Had I had more time available I would probably have sought to submit evidence in support of our position, and flagged it up here rather than my knee-jerk response of mailing Matt, but simply didn't have the headspace or the spare half day to get things organised to take it further at that point. Also Stripe's documentation around the issue seemed to indicate pretty clearly that winning these types of disputes was hard, and that the system was designed in favour of the consumer.

I've now received a notice that the dispute has been 'lost' and so the payment (£41.40) has been refunded to the person concerned, and a further 'dispute fee' (I think £20) has been taken, presumably to bolster the issuing bank's profits.

Why am I flagging this up now?

  1. I don't know what social.coop's policy is around this type of thing, but I imagine that you might want to pick this up with the person concerned. As I say I've written to them seeking their cooperation, and got nowhere - if my email even got past their spam filter. I'm not clear on the rules of using social.coop - do you disable accounts where people have not made a contribution?

  2. Thankfully this looks to be a very rare occurrence, but it has taken up a good deal of my time, and cost money into the bargain. So I guess it's useful to give some consideration to the issue, and maybe see how we can collectively learn from it. It feels like it could be a risk where people are setting up annual recurring payments (higher amounts, bigger gaps in time so more likely to forget what it was for, etc.)

I'm more than happy to pass on my email to the person concerned, and also the email I sent to Matt, if that's helpful, along with the identity of the person involved.

Here's to a dispute-free future.

JD

Josh Davis Wed 13 Dec 2023 5:57PM

Thanks for handling this, Graham! I've given at least one refund to someone who had just this happen to them, and they were very easy to work with. I didn't get any notification of this Stripe dispute though.

NS

Nathan Schneider Thu 14 Dec 2023 3:29AM

I have also done at least one refund on Open Collective. We would be happy to pay you back for the fees, @Graham . Would that help?

G

Graham Thu 14 Dec 2023 9:33AM

Hi @Nathan Schneider - tbh I've not yet had a chance to check whether the fee was taken from the collective's fund via OC or not. I'll get back on that. your offer is welcome - we can't carry that kind of risk if similar incidents occur. Perhaps more importantly I wanted to flag it up so that your community was aware of it and thereby able to consider what if anything, it wanted to do in response.

AES

These will continue to happen. That’s just the nature of online payments with hundreds and hundreds of “subscribers”. We should learn more about how Open Collective handles this with the fiscal host, the fiscal tenant (that’s us, social.coop), and the contributor.

We need to keep Stripe in our good graces so I would want to know if Open Collective has the processes and tools in place to do that — or if we need to be working within Stripe directly. @Graham and @Nathan Schneider would that limit the response to you two as admins for fiscal host and “fiscal tenant”?

G

Graham Tue 19 Dec 2023 8:42AM

I think a good step to help minimise these types of issues is around good comms with the people that are putting money into social.coop. Open Collective provides a means to communicate with them, outside of social.coop itself.