COVID Mandate by Jurisdiction review- Monday 20 June at 2pm.
This action comes from the Risk Jedi.
The purpose of this Jedlet is to:
Review the advice received from the lawyer regarding COVID Mandate requirements- attached.
from an organisational perspective, identify what we need to consider/implement/identify options.
Feedback will be reported back to the Governance Jedi (scheduled for the 23rd June).
A teams meeting has been sent to All Jeder members for Monday 20th June at 2pm. If you are not able to attend the meeting, please make comments, raise questions or provide feedback on this thread.
It would be great to see you there.
Jason Emmins Thu 16 Jun 2022 11:13PM
Thanks @Julie Anne Carrington. You raise a good question- are visitors and employees/workers classified differently under the Mandate (please correct me if I am wrong in my summary/assumption)?
Its also ok to concentrate on your state (QLD)- I would not expect everyone to be all over each of the jurisdictions.
From my perspective- they are classified differently based on:
-
This Direction applies to a person who is seeking to enter and remain in a residential aged care facility as a visitor for the purpose of visiting or providing support to a resident of that residential aged care facility, or to provide products or services on a voluntary basis, as part of their role with an organisation other than the residential aged care facility.
Note: a person who is an employee, a student undertaking placement, or a volunteer engaged directly by a residential aged care facility is not considered a visitor who is subject to the requirements of this direction but is considered either a residential aged care worker or a worker in healthcare who is required to comply with the Workers in a healthcare setting (COVID-19 Vaccination Requirements) Direction (No. 4) or its successors.
To me, if we receive payment for the supports we provide (which would be classified as a Health Care Worker- as we are certainly promoting wellbeing) we would not be classified as voluntary and as such the mandate conditions apply.
Thoughts?
Julie Anne Carrington Sun 19 Jun 2022 8:59PM
I realise the differance betwwen visitors and employee's - from the CEO of the care facility
"We have been working within grey areas of the mandate to assist families to visit their loved ones".
I know there is a clear point of difference between visitors and employee’s - grey areas is my point how can we be creative working within the guidelines.
Michaela Kennedy Sun 19 Jun 2022 12:58AM
I'm not really good at deciphering this type of jargon and agree that there doesn't seem to be any actual advice from the lawyer only copied information from the government information. From a little google search there seems to be another update as of June 17, link below. Does this make this information outdated? I am also aware that the pandemic status has been extended to September 2022 which I believe allows for such mandates. However we don't know what is going to happen after that.
What is important to me is that we have options for those who do not wish to either get vaccinated or do not want the boosters. We have done well to date with having the option of working non face to face and as long as this can continue I would be grateful. I don't think anything is certain for the long term until the pandemic is over.
I look forward to further discussions on Monday and I will advocate for wider collaboration opportunities and simplified information share.
Jason Emmins Mon 20 Jun 2022 2:29AM
Thanks Mic- I will have a look at the info.
The update to the NSW Mandate includes:
Update: 15/06/2022-
Explanatory note The object of this Order is to repeal and remake the Public Health ((COVID-19 General) Order 2022 with the following amendments—
(a) the removal of the direction that persons who enter nightclubs, strip clubs, sex on premises venues and large indoor music festivals must register their contact details,
(b) the removal of the direction that only fully vaccinated persons may be on premises where a large indoor music festival is being held.
Jason Emmins Tue 21 Jun 2022 4:25AM
Hi, apologies for anyone that missed it, but the Jedlet Notes can be found: 2022 06 20 Mandate by Jurisdiction Jedlet .docx
Poll Created Tue 21 Jun 2022 6:27AM
What should we do if one of our members receives a fine due to not meeting the COVID19 Mandate requirements Closed Tue 28 Jun 2022 6:02AM
Thanks for everyone that voted- we had 40% of our members respond.
Based on the results, 56% of the members that voted feel it is best to discuss individual circumstances at the Governance Jedi should an individual or Jeder receive a fine. The second highest (32%) was the individual should be responsible for both fines.
I will take these results to the Risk Jedi and Governance Jedi for discussion/further action (if required).
At the Mandate by Jurisdiction Jedlet today, we had an initial discussion about what should we do if one of our members were to receive a fine for not complying with the relevant State Based Mandate Requirements. It was decided to Poll the Membership to gauge what we should/could do.
In most States, to be considered fully vaccinated, members need to have had three doses (2 initial and one booster) of the COVID 19 Vaccination or provide a medical contraindication/exemption. For more specific information regarding the mandates, please click on this link: Vaccination Mandates by Jurisdiction - Updated 26 May 2022 (Tracked).docx
Currently, the fines are (I have only included the states where we are currently undertaking work):
NSW- individual fine $11,000 and 6 months imprisonment, Organisational $55,000 and $27500 each day the offence continues.
VIC- Individual fine $21,808, Organisational/Corporations $109,044
QLD- $13,785 (100 penalty points- 1 penalty point is $135.85). does not distinguish between individual or organisational.
TAS- not specified in Directive.
Results
| Results | Option | % of points | Voters | |||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
|
Depends on the circumstances and should be discussed with the Governance Jedi | 56.0% | 14 | |||
|
|
Individual should be responsible for both personal and organisational fine | 32.0% | 8 | |||
|
|
The Individual should pay the individual fine and Jeder should pay the organisational fine | 12.0% | 3 | |||
| Jeder should pay both fines | 0.0% | 0 | ||||
| Undecided | 0% | 36 |
25 of 61 people have participated (40%)
Anonymous Tue 21 Jun 2022 6:28AM
Q: is this an ethical discuss?
Am I and Jeder the right fit if I have no medical/health restriction to have the vaccine?
If this is part of regulation, how flexibility do I have?
Is it worth to take the risk?
Is Jeder responsible to notify the authories about membership vaccination status? If so, does Jeder has the responsibility to put employment on hold to safe guarde both?
When does the matter become a fine?
I am fully vaccinated.
Is this right or wrong? Is this discrimination?
Anonymous Tue 21 Jun 2022 6:28AM
I don’t feel like I have enough information to make an informed vote. Are you able to share more background info on the mandates? Is this NDIS specific or Jeder wide? Thank you.
Anonymous Tue 21 Jun 2022 6:28AM
Due to their being reasons both medical and moral as to why some members are choosing not to be vaccinated, and that the wording within the mandates by jurisdiction are not always clearly stated, it may not always be the fault of the individual in not being able to clearly decipher what can and cannot be undertaken to meet the criteria of the mandate. To avoid any risk to Jeder lawyers need to clearly answer any questions relating to grey areas in order that unvaccinated members have exact info.
Anonymous Tue 21 Jun 2022 6:28AM
If someone has documented health evidence around their risk of getting vaccinated which would impact their health this is not their 'fault'. Blaming the individual for a mandate decision is not solving the greater problem around individual choice and discrimination based on choices.
Anonymous Tue 21 Jun 2022 6:28AM
The individual and the organisation needs to be accountable. I think that legally it would be difficult to enforce an individual to pay the organisations fine.
Anonymous Tue 21 Jun 2022 6:28AM
If we're given clear info about what the mandates state, and clear info about how to work in the grey areas without risking a fine (E.g. unvaccinated members being able to working non face to face) I believe it should be the individual's responsibility to work in a way that doesn't attract a huge fine.
Anonymous Tue 21 Jun 2022 6:28AM
I think we need to seek legal advice(not HR advice) from a legal company that has a case similar to this, and can provide legal advice to Jeder. In this case, I do not think it matters what opinions members might hold....we cannot breach the law, leaving Jeder exposed .
Anonymous Tue 21 Jun 2022 6:28AM
It is their choice not to vaccinate so I feel their responsibility with the outcomes of their choice
Anonymous Tue 21 Jun 2022 6:28AM
Many of us were hesitant and we sucked it up and sacrificed so much to keep others safe by being vaccinated. I don’t want to be financially responsible for someone else who was not socially responsible. (Legitimate exemptions not included.)
Anonymous Tue 21 Jun 2022 6:28AM
If you don’t meet your state mandate you can work NON face to face = WIN
Knowingly continuing to work face to face NOT adhering to mandate I see as a strategy to challenge the mandate and feel uncomfortable with Jeder being used to pursue or fund this agenda.
Game changer yes BUT activity that puts Jeder at risk makes all members liable to fund lawyers/litigation/fines etc
I am deeply concerned if Jeder is deregistered and the negative impact on participants/members & their families.
Anonymous Tue 21 Jun 2022 6:28AM
Each case needs to be considered with it's own context and situation. An amicable decision needs to be made together.
Anonymous Tue 21 Jun 2022 6:28AM
I’m unsure if we would be able to enforce an individual paying the org fine legally. Concerned this would leave Jeder open to litigation by a Member which could have larger fiscal impact on the organisation as well as registration impacts.
Anonymous Tue 21 Jun 2022 6:28AM
If an individual has a medical reason for not being vaccinated then this should not preclude them from working with Jeder and a case by case decision should be discussed at the Governance Jedi, if the individual makes a choice based on their moral values then I feel that the individual should be responsible for their own fines. While this sounds cold hearted why should those who made the moral decision to vaccinate and the organisation be responsible for fines for those who havent.
Jason Emmins Tue 21 Jun 2022 11:47AM
Questions that were not able to be explored further at the Jedlet, so we have decided to post them on Loomio for some further discussion. Each question will be posted as an individual comment- if you could reply to the comment that would be great:
Q1. What are the risks (organisationally) if we are not meeting the mandate requirements? Any reputational, perceived or actual risks we should be considering/managing?
Jason Emmins Tue 21 Jun 2022 12:07PM
Couple of thoughts from me:
Reputational-
Jeder Institute does not follow the law (mandates).
Perceived-
Jeder Institute employs unvaccinated members.
Actual-
if we receive a fine, this will significantly financially disrupt our organisation, and potentially lead to de-registration (due to not abiding by our conditions of not breaking any laws).
Members that are not vaccinated continue to conduct face to face meetings with participants/families/sector. How do we know each member that is not vaccinated is complying with the mandate (i.e. not conducting face to face meetings)?
Jason Emmins Tue 21 Jun 2022 11:47AM
Questions that were not able to be explored further at the Jedlet, so we have decided to post them on Loomio for some further discussion. Each question will be posted as an individual comment- if you could reply to the comment that would be great:
Q2. Workshops and gatherings- what do we need to consider if we are facilitating? Link to our COVIDSafe Plan?
Jason Emmins Tue 21 Jun 2022 11:48AM
Questions that were not able to be explored further at the Jedlet, so we have decided to post them on Loomio for some further discussion. Each question will be posted as an individual comment- if you could reply to the comment that would be great:
Q3. Would it be possible to meet with a plan nominee, rather than a participant?
Jason Emmins Tue 21 Jun 2022 12:01PM
I think it would depend on what the Mandate states in each jurisdiction?
For example, in NSW a person must not provide disability services unless the person is appropriately vaccinated- the definition of disability services means services provided in person to a person with a disability including services funded or provided under the NDIS or Assisted School Transport.
Basically, for NSW NDIS members, we are still conducting business/work and charging for it using NDIS funds and that work is face to face- although not directly with a person with a disability. It would certainly be a grey area and could potentially be explored further in the Mandate Workaround Jedlet? Thoughts?
For COBU members, I don't think this would apply in NSW.
Jason Emmins Tue 21 Jun 2022 11:48AM
Questions that were not able to be explored further at the Jedlet, so we have decided to post them on Loomio for some further discussion. Each question will be posted as an individual comment- if you could reply to the comment that would be great:
Q4. What is the cost of the Lawyer that completed this work? Are Members paying for this?
Jason Emmins Tue 21 Jun 2022 12:02PM
I will get this information and posted on Loomio ASAP.
Julie Anne Carrington · Thu 16 Jun 2022 1:32PM
I read through the document - (which I must say looks to me to be cut and pasted from the wording of each Health directive, there doesn't seem to be any advice or imterpretation by the lawer in their own words of what the mandate means to us as an organisation)
I admit my focus was on QLD - however I cannot see where Support Coorodinators fall into the examples of a Health Care worker
‘High-risk settings’ include early childhood, primary and security educational settings, corrective service facilities, police watchhouse and some areas of airports.
There are specific directions for:
Examples of a healthcare worker include an employee or contractor of a disability accommodation service, support worker providing services in supported independent living NDIS funded psychologist or occupational therapist providing in home support for an NDIS participant’s wellbeing (whether a registered or unregistered NDIS provider), non NDIS support person that provides in home assistance to a person in residential aged care;
Please see the advice from the aged care facility that my father resides in.
To assist families, we have attached a visiting protocol flowchart for reference. This will explain visiting arrangements whether your vaccinated, unvaccinated, or visiting a loved one.
Please remember to adhere to the below:
All visits on site or off site MUST be booked in at reception.
Visiting hours are from 8:30am to 4:30pm 7 days. This is based on 2 people per visit for a
maximum of 4 hours
TGA approved Rapid Antigen Test is to be completed daily on site before visiting your loved
one.
NoosaCare is providing 1 free RAT kit for one visitor per resident per day i.e., there are a
maximum of 2 visitors per resident per day, the second visitor is to bring their own TGA
approved RAT test kit.
Face masks remain mandatory for the duration of your visit at any Aged Care facility.
Wash hands before entering and leaving the facility
Stay 1.5 metres away from others where possible
Stay away when unwell
Follow requests from the NoosaCare staff to help keep staff and residents safe
Jeder could potentially to do a risk assessment on the above advice
COS could follow this direction and safely have face to face with our Participants.